Predestination in the bible

[Fat Viking]

why do you need to be religeous when the bible states that God has already decided who goes to heaven and hell?

[darth vader]

by religious do you mean god-fearing? then god has decided who goes to heaven and hell (if you choose to believe there is one) based on whether you are god-fearing or not. sorry it IS a bit chicken and eggy, but basically it means your path of destination is determined by yourself and not god - he chooses based on how you live your life (although in theory he sees all and knows all and so already knows the answer, before you do). regarding the hell question mark - only catholicism really paints the "there is a place called hell" scenario - J Witnesses interpret the earth we live on now, as being hell (not wrong hey?) so it's all down to interpretation and belief.

[darth vader]

what do i think? all religion is a farce and a complete and utter hypocrisy that this planet has to live with (and mainly there as a cash cow imho). what is the single most majority factor about war in: Isreal, Africa, Iraq, (plus terrorist attacks on USA, on Spain) etc etc etc? answer religion. I am god-fearing, and i believe god judges me by my actions in this life - helping others, helping my family, doing good where i can - living my life to the full and as best i think he expects me to live. I don't think he wants me to toddle off down to a brick house dawbed with gold and pretty windows etc., once a week, get on my knees and shout "we are not worthy" and expect a place in heaven when i pop my clogs. Perhaps my destination is predetermined, but then i hope it is because i have done all that i can to be a good person in this life.

[tartanwiz]

This belief, known as Calvinism, is not accepted by all Christian churches. However, according to the theory (which I don't believe personally), you have no way of knowing whether you are bound for Heaven or hell, so you'd better play it safe and be God-fearing. There is just a chance then you might get into Heaven.

[Mortartube]

Why should you bother living a good life? After all God is "all forgiving"! Religion seems to be a human device to explain the things that science cannot or couldn't. IMHO, the more things science explains the less relevant religion becomes.

[seal!]

following tartanwiz's point. there is a section in revelations, that states as follows: "The angel said 'do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees, until we mark the servants of our god with a seal on their foreheads' and i was told that the number of the those who were marked with gods seal on their foreheads was 144,000 the were from the twelve tribes of Israel."

[seal!]

Mortartube, i completly agree with you, and i have had that theroy for as long as i can remember. but, "God" is not all forgiving, "he" only forgives if the person is sorry.

[TommyC]

I'm not sure quite who you've been talking to, Darth, but for the sake of accuracy I can assure you that Jehovah's Witnesses certainly do not believe that this earth is in any way "hell" - difficult as life assuredly is right now. The Hebrew word that was translated "hell" in the old Bibles is "Sheol", and the exact Greek equivalent in the Christian Greek scriptures is the word "Hades". Unknown to and misunderstood by many older and less capable translators, these two words simply mean the state of human death, nothing more and nothing less, and the Bible is completely consistent in dealing with them in this way. Everything else, about life after death, and some strange form of existence in purgatory, and eternal torment by fire in "hell" are simply wicked, calculating lies and distortions preached by a corrupt and all-powerful church establishment down through the centuries, which have blackened God's loving name for millions of ordinary, decent people, just as the Bible foretold would happen. But even so, death is not the end for those whom God favours, (and in his great love He favours many more than we might imagine possible) because Jesus himself proved the reality of the "resurrection" (Greek "Anastasis", literally, "standing up again") from human death, to a new life on an earthly paradise at the proper time, where repeated human sin and death would be removed forever by God's power. The Bible states that this is the only hope for mankind, and God's true and unstoppable purpose for the future.

[darth vader]

when god cast satan down after the war in heaven, Satan was allowed to create hell on earth. I don't remember the exact quote but this was how it basically went, after Satan was expelled from heaven in 1914, according to JW's. Sorry i may have been misguiding people with my statement but i was trying to show that whereas Catholics view Hell as some fiery eternal misery place under the earth, JW's already see the planet we live in as being the hell to which we hope to be rescued from. It's all very metaphorical i know.....

[incitatus]

the point with calvinism, and this incidentally is one of the founding articles of the c of e as layed out in the 1665 bcp, was that man cannot influence god. therefore god decides who goes to heaven or not. so any actions taken on earth are irrelevant. It doesnt matter if you are mother teresa or pol pot. So being good just in case does you no good. This is why calvinist preachers are so moody.This doctrine is explored brilliantly in James Hoggs "confessions of a self justified sinner".