If There Was Any Doubt Of Labour's Anti...
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What Happened In Leicester?
A young man named Antoin Akpom is stabbed and the following night a house is firebombed and a mother with her three children die in the blaze.
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SP, yes we do see revenge attacks in every race and culture. However, in most instances the action of taking revenge is a personal choice, and is not demanded in order to preserve honour within society, as it is in some communities. That is the difference. As you say, we don’t know that this is a revenge attack, but as I’ve done many times before, I simply wanted to highlight the difference between perceived colour prejudice and where in reality that concept often arises – from culture, not colour.
sp, I think your understandable sensitivity to racial stereotyping has led you to miss the point of NJ's remark. He didn't mention colour. To me he implied that it is the propagation of cultural values to first or second generation immigrants that are alien to mainstream British people (and to you) that are the cause of incidents such as that mentioned above. This is the price we pay for Tony Blair's 'multicultural Britain', Acid attacks, honour killings, forced marriage, FGM, murder of 'witches', sex slavery, etc.
But in your perceived difference (culture/race) - where does the divergence happen?
If you say that x happens because of culture, rather than race - but x is attributed to everyone who shares the same racial identity, then could it not be argued that the difference (between a cultural and racial pre-determination) is down to semantics?
I've just re-read the above, and it very badly worded, but I hope you can wade through it to see my point.
I would be extremely surprised if this were a revenge attack spurred on by some cultural influence - because I've literally never heard of that (in relation to those from the Indian sub-continent).
Melanie Smith and the Philpotts both set fires out of revenge.
Is this something we can ascribe to British culture?
If you say that x happens because of culture, rather than race - but x is attributed to everyone who shares the same racial identity, then could it not be argued that the difference (between a cultural and racial pre-determination) is down to semantics?
I've just re-read the above, and it very badly worded, but I hope you can wade through it to see my point.
I would be extremely surprised if this were a revenge attack spurred on by some cultural influence - because I've literally never heard of that (in relation to those from the Indian sub-continent).
Melanie Smith and the Philpotts both set fires out of revenge.
Is this something we can ascribe to British culture?
jomifi
You wrote:
"To me he implied that it is the propagation of cultural values to first or second generation immigrants that are alien to mainstream British people (and to you) that are the cause of incidents such as that mentioned above"
You kinda went and proved my point with this:
"that are alien to mainstream British people and to you"
Frankly, I don't understand why you put that caveat at the end.
Which is why I find the whole dog/manger allegory so irritating. Especially when it comes from intelligent people.
You wrote:
"To me he implied that it is the propagation of cultural values to first or second generation immigrants that are alien to mainstream British people (and to you) that are the cause of incidents such as that mentioned above"
You kinda went and proved my point with this:
"that are alien to mainstream British people and to you"
Frankly, I don't understand why you put that caveat at the end.
Which is why I find the whole dog/manger allegory so irritating. Especially when it comes from intelligent people.
SP, //x is attributed to everyone who shares the same racial identity//
x is often attributed to everyone who shares the same racial identity – but it’s wrong. Various cultures exist within every race. There is a difference between race and culture. For example, the Taliban does not share its culture with every Afghani or with every Pakistani. Far from it – and the same applies in every society.
x is often attributed to everyone who shares the same racial identity – but it’s wrong. Various cultures exist within every race. There is a difference between race and culture. For example, the Taliban does not share its culture with every Afghani or with every Pakistani. Far from it – and the same applies in every society.
Sp, The 'and to you' was in brackets which implied that I was including you in mainstream british culture just to avoid any misunderstanding. There is a distinction between race and culture, since you can choose your culture(unless you are a muslim) but not your race. It is you who brought the issue of race into the discussion, not me. I wouldn't have known that you were of different racial origins to the majority of British had you not laboured the point so often. Try not to look for trouble where it doesn't exist.
sp1814
First let me say that I agree with most, that this whole affair is very sad, but we do not know the full facts, and before we do I think in one way it is unwise to make a judgement , but enough to say that we can discuss the facts that are before us and any thoughts we may have without others condemning us for doing so.
I agree with the culture aspect, no matter if one is born in a country not of its ancestors, one cannot be classed a true native, because all the different races of the world have certain in built ancestral cultures, ie African culture is entirely different to European culture, and if I were born in Africa I would not share the same culture any more than I expect an African to share the same culture as an Englishman.
This is not being racist it is just anthropological fact, how often does one hear the saying "I wish to get back to my roots" and indeed most of those who come to this country do exactly that, they have no wish to become true Englishmen or Women.
First let me say that I agree with most, that this whole affair is very sad, but we do not know the full facts, and before we do I think in one way it is unwise to make a judgement , but enough to say that we can discuss the facts that are before us and any thoughts we may have without others condemning us for doing so.
I agree with the culture aspect, no matter if one is born in a country not of its ancestors, one cannot be classed a true native, because all the different races of the world have certain in built ancestral cultures, ie African culture is entirely different to European culture, and if I were born in Africa I would not share the same culture any more than I expect an African to share the same culture as an Englishman.
This is not being racist it is just anthropological fact, how often does one hear the saying "I wish to get back to my roots" and indeed most of those who come to this country do exactly that, they have no wish to become true Englishmen or Women.
// Tony Blair's 'multicultural Britain //
We did not have any ethnic diversity before Blair? Was the influx of West Indians invited here by Enoch Powell in the 60s just a mirage? Were the immigrants from the Asian subcontinent in the 70s and 80s just an apparition?
Under Blair, a wave of eastern Europeans arrived, half have whom have left. They came because they were allowed to under EU rules, a club that Heath, Thatcher and Major signed away British sovereignty at every opportunity. And the same will happen with the romanians and Bulgarian as Cameron will be powerless to stop it.
We did not have any ethnic diversity before Blair? Was the influx of West Indians invited here by Enoch Powell in the 60s just a mirage? Were the immigrants from the Asian subcontinent in the 70s and 80s just an apparition?
Under Blair, a wave of eastern Europeans arrived, half have whom have left. They came because they were allowed to under EU rules, a club that Heath, Thatcher and Major signed away British sovereignty at every opportunity. And the same will happen with the romanians and Bulgarian as Cameron will be powerless to stop it.
Actually jomifi, New Judge brought race into it with his dog/manger allegory.
Put it this way...
If you put a black man who was born and raised in this country, next to someone with the same accent, same clothing but who's great grandparents are American, you would have no problem thinking of the white man as British, but because the black man has a different skin colour, it's the whole dog/stable thing again (God knows where I got manger from).
Put it this way...
If you put a black man who was born and raised in this country, next to someone with the same accent, same clothing but who's great grandparents are American, you would have no problem thinking of the white man as British, but because the black man has a different skin colour, it's the whole dog/stable thing again (God knows where I got manger from).
sp1814
/// I would be extremely surprised if this were a revenge attack spurred on by some cultural influence - because I've literally never heard of that (in relation to those from the Indian sub-continent). ///
The young lad who was murdered the day previous to the fire killings (who incidentally hardly gets a sympathetic mention) was black, so if it was a revenge attack, wouldn't it be fair to say that it would most likely be a black against Asian revenge attack?
/// I would be extremely surprised if this were a revenge attack spurred on by some cultural influence - because I've literally never heard of that (in relation to those from the Indian sub-continent). ///
The young lad who was murdered the day previous to the fire killings (who incidentally hardly gets a sympathetic mention) was black, so if it was a revenge attack, wouldn't it be fair to say that it would most likely be a black against Asian revenge attack?
AOG, //if I were born in Africa I would not share the same culture any more than I expect an African to share the same culture as an Englishman. //
You see, you are falling into the precise trap that Jom and I are talking about. You are making assumptions. I know Africans - and people of African descent - who share my culture. Conversely, I'm aware of the existence of many indigenous Brits with whom I have nothing whatsoever in common. Culture is not about race or colour.
You see, you are falling into the precise trap that Jom and I are talking about. You are making assumptions. I know Africans - and people of African descent - who share my culture. Conversely, I'm aware of the existence of many indigenous Brits with whom I have nothing whatsoever in common. Culture is not about race or colour.
jomifi
The dog/stable line is something that I will always highlight as being extremely offensive.
I don't see a reason why I should keep quiet about something I feel strong,y about.
It has always been a nasty way of saying, "You are not one of us - you are different, even if culturally you identify yourself as British".
Really, really, really insulting. To the black Britons who fight for this country, who represent this country in sports - to be told that you're not British?
Incredibly insulting.
The dog/stable line is something that I will always highlight as being extremely offensive.
I don't see a reason why I should keep quiet about something I feel strong,y about.
It has always been a nasty way of saying, "You are not one of us - you are different, even if culturally you identify yourself as British".
Really, really, really insulting. To the black Britons who fight for this country, who represent this country in sports - to be told that you're not British?
Incredibly insulting.
Okay...here's the thing...
F W De Klerk...
African or not?
In my eyes, the man is most certainly African, and it has nothing to do with his skin colour.
So, can a black person born in London, who supports Spurs, drinks at the Red Lion and watches The X Factor with his family after a barbecue with his friends in the afternoon, not be considered British?
Or is he still a dog born in a stable?
F W De Klerk...
African or not?
In my eyes, the man is most certainly African, and it has nothing to do with his skin colour.
So, can a black person born in London, who supports Spurs, drinks at the Red Lion and watches The X Factor with his family after a barbecue with his friends in the afternoon, not be considered British?
Or is he still a dog born in a stable?
sp, I took NJ's post to be an analogy and didn't see a racial reference in it but then my life experience is probably somewhat different to yours. We all interpret events through our experiences so I can see that you might have a different slant on it to me.My ancestors came from Ireland, (then a British colony):-)
AOG Culture is not inherited through our genes. I would be interested in your definition of 'British'.
AOG Culture is not inherited through our genes. I would be interested in your definition of 'British'.
