Ukip V The Unions, Could We See A Return Of Real Left/right Politics?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/john-prescott-leads-labour-attacks-on-timid-ed-miliband-after-poll-puts-tories-ahead-9776047.html

/// But in what could be a more ominous development for Labour’s future, Mick Cash, leader of the RMT transport union, has threatened that some unions may launch a rival party if Labour loses next year’s election. He accused the leadership of abandoning the party’s roots in the working class. ///

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mick-cash-interview-disillusioned-with-labour-rmt-union-chief-plots-new-a-party-for-the-left-9776039.html

[ludwig]

// Mick Cash, leader of the RMT transport union, has threatened that some unions may launch a rival party if Labour loses next year’s election. //

It's been tried before and failed miserably.

[Zacs-Master]

//He accused the leadership of abandoning the party’s roots in the working class. //.....IN 1997!

[Gromit]

After the next election, UKIP will probably have 2 or 3 seats.
A Union Labour Party is unlikely to win any seats.

The British public do not like extreme parties. Which is why the 3 main parties are crammed in the middle.

[Zacs-Master]

Extreme political parties only succeed in extreme times . Since Mrs T got rid of the drain on our resources which were the unions and uneconomical industries, we've never had it so good. Just ask AOG.

[mikey4444]

Zacs...I doubt that the millions of people thrown out of work in the 80's would agree with your last point. A lot areas that were deindustrialised have yet to recover.

[youngmafbog]

//The British public do not like extreme parties. //

I would contend that UKIP, and indeed a Union party would not be extreme. Not centre maybe but not extreme that is the realm of the BNP and the Communist parties.

UKIP wont get many seats, if any this election but they may well get a share of the electorate that is not reflected in seats, much like the liberal problem.

No new party is going to be formed and Govern within 10 or even 20 years but it does not mean that a new party, left or right could not do it.

[youngmafbog]

//millions of people thrown out of work in the 80's //

A bit of a wide open statement ? The jobless rose over 3 million but it was not zero in the first place!

[mikey4444]

It won't matter a hill of beans if UKIP "do well" next May, if the result is no or few seats at Westminster. They will be like the Greens...terribly earnest but powerless, and they will have achieved nothing.

[Zacs-Master]

Mikey, I was one of those people....on two occasions (well, one in 1992 to be precise). But I didn't go around trying to form a union to protect my job at the expense of the greater good. As I've said before, the unions brought long lasting misery to their neighbourhoods, not Mrs T.

[mikey4444]

ymb...In 1979, the unemployment rate in Britain was 5.2%, By 1986, it had soared to 14.8%. These figures speak for themselves. You have to go back to the 1920's to find similar figures.

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

/// The British public do not like extreme parties. ///

Why then is UKIP so popular?

Then again I wouldn't class them as extreme, unless it is being extreme taking on board the general public's real concerns.

[mikey4444]

But are UKIP popular ? They still have no seats in Westminster, despite trying for years. They have a good hope of a seat later on this week in Clacton, but they will be stealing this from the Tories. They have a few seats in Brussels but this was due to PR. Even the BNP managed to get a seat in the EC with PR but nobody describes the BNP as "popular"

Can I point out that UKIP considered Clacton so crucial to their master plan, that they forgot to field a candidate in 2010 ! Has anybody asked Farage why they missed such a golden opportunity only 4 years ago ?

[youngmafbog]

Mickey, why do you base number of seats in Westminster with popularity?

You know our voting system is skewed, even more so since labour skewed the boundaries.

Mickey

//These figures speak for themselves. //

No they dont, it takes no account of new jobs created, which they must have been or the jobless would have been more like 5 million.

To assess things like this a whole load of factors need to be taken into account; unless you have an agenda of course.

[mikey4444]

YMB...shortly after the 2010 election, the people of Britain were asked in a referendum if they wanted PR and they resoundly said they didn't. So UKIP, just like all other Parties, have to play the game with the cards they are dealt with. We can't change the rules just to please Mr Farage. But Farage seems to see poaching seats from the Tories as his only way into Parliament, which is why this Thursday's by election will probably go his way. The Bookies are giving 1/100.

Perhaps you know why UKIP didn't field a candidate in 2010 ?

[Postdog]

"The British don't like extreme parties"

What have we now then?

[Zacs-Master]

Lets be clear. UKIP don't appear to be extreme. At the moment.

[mikey4444]

Not "extreme" perhaps but hardly mainstream surely ?

[youngmafbog]

Mickey, what are you on about?

I didnt suggest the rules be changed, I simply pointed out that in the UK seats does not directly correspond to popularity. That applies to many parties, liberals, green etc.

So I am unsure why I got the lecture on PR.

[mikey4444]

YMB...you commented that our first-past-the-post system was "skewed" and I gave my response. It wasn't meant as a lecture, which I am sure you don't need, so I apologise !....just a point of information for others here today.

UKIP suffers from the same disadvantage that other minor parties are subject to in Britain, which is why some kind of PR is used in the Scottish and Welsh elections, and for the EC elections. Its very difficult, if not impossible for a new party to break through under our system.

For instance, in 2010 the LibDems achieved 23% of the popular vote but instead of getting 149 seats, (23 %) only got 57. The Greens, contrastingly got 1 seat on 0.9% of the popular vote, but UKIP had no seats, despite getting 3.1% !

So if UKIP is wanting to achieve a real breakthrough in Westminster, its difficult to see how they can do it with our present system. Having a tiny amount of seats after May 2015 will just not be enough to "break the mold"