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Should We Support Russia Joining Up With Syria's President Bashar Al-Assad In Their Fight Against Isis, Rather Than Criticise Them?
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"allegedly, the Russians offered to dump Assad but the west were so sure he was on the way out anyway that they refused the offer
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Yes I remember this and the feeling was, as Sir John Jenkins points out in the link, that the Russians could not be trusted, as the offer came from Vitaly Churkin, the drunk who represents Russia at the UN, and not from President Putin himself.
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Yes I remember this and the feeling was, as Sir John Jenkins points out in the link, that the Russians could not be trusted, as the offer came from Vitaly Churkin, the drunk who represents Russia at the UN, and not from President Putin himself.
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"You say Russia should work with the west to help resolve things. Wouldn't it make more sense if the west worked with Russia - given that they have more influence than we do. "
No it wouldn't, for the reasons I gave above.
As for being "anti-Russian", I'm not "anti-Russian" but "anti-Kremlin"
I will cheerfully boot the boot in whenever I can, with added hobnails, too :-)
Going back to the point jno made, it was felt at the time indeed, that the Russians were trying it on. Everyone felt that Assad was on the way out, Putin included, and the suspicion was they were playing for time
No it wouldn't, for the reasons I gave above.
As for being "anti-Russian", I'm not "anti-Russian" but "anti-Kremlin"
I will cheerfully boot the boot in whenever I can, with added hobnails, too :-)
Going back to the point jno made, it was felt at the time indeed, that the Russians were trying it on. Everyone felt that Assad was on the way out, Putin included, and the suspicion was they were playing for time
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It wasn't Putin's offer though as already pointed out, although even if it had been I'm not sure it would have made a lot of difference to be honest. The fact that it was Churkin just made it easier to brush off.
You can't really trust any of them, And that assessment is based on past experience not prejudice. If anything the west has been guilty of trusting and believing the Kremlin too much in the past.
But ignoring Russia for a moment, the fact is that no matter who was suggesting teaming up with Assad to defeat ISIS, it wouldn't work. That, really, is the thing, when it comes to Syria
You can't really trust any of them, And that assessment is based on past experience not prejudice. If anything the west has been guilty of trusting and believing the Kremlin too much in the past.
But ignoring Russia for a moment, the fact is that no matter who was suggesting teaming up with Assad to defeat ISIS, it wouldn't work. That, really, is the thing, when it comes to Syria
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No we should not team up with Assad, but neither should we interfere in toppling him.
As for ISIS. We should therefore pursue them wherever they are and this includes Syria.
The problem is that then we get the right-on brigade and a bunch of lawyers looking to make a buck by calling it illegal. So I guess we should let Assad ask us for help in eliminating ISIS to get round this.
As for ISIS. We should therefore pursue them wherever they are and this includes Syria.
The problem is that then we get the right-on brigade and a bunch of lawyers looking to make a buck by calling it illegal. So I guess we should let Assad ask us for help in eliminating ISIS to get round this.
"You say Putin didn't make the offer. But don't all diplomats simply spout what they are told to spout by their government (i.e. Putin, in this case).
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Undoubtedly. It most certainly would have come from Putin, but there was no official confirmation of that. As I say, it looked at time, simply like a ploy to save Assad's neck which no doubt is also what the so-called agreement to get rid of chemical weapons also was. And of course that was a complete con as we now see, with all sides cheerfully using them, it would seem.
I think it;s too late to actually topple Assad by direct intervention also. There are so many groups fighting in Syria now, by no means all of them IS, but jihadists and others.
Meanwhile he continues to rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians, which morally makes him no better than the "terrorists" he is fighting. The only difference being, as he would not hesitate to tell us, that he does not threaten the west: he only kills his own people.
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Undoubtedly. It most certainly would have come from Putin, but there was no official confirmation of that. As I say, it looked at time, simply like a ploy to save Assad's neck which no doubt is also what the so-called agreement to get rid of chemical weapons also was. And of course that was a complete con as we now see, with all sides cheerfully using them, it would seem.
I think it;s too late to actually topple Assad by direct intervention also. There are so many groups fighting in Syria now, by no means all of them IS, but jihadists and others.
Meanwhile he continues to rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians, which morally makes him no better than the "terrorists" he is fighting. The only difference being, as he would not hesitate to tell us, that he does not threaten the west: he only kills his own people.
ichkeria
/// Meanwhile he continues to rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians, which morally makes him no better than the "terrorists" he is fighting. ///
It is war, didn't the RAF and the USAF also rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians during WW2?
Did that also make us no better than the Nazis we were fighting?
/// Meanwhile he continues to rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians, which morally makes him no better than the "terrorists" he is fighting. ///
It is war, didn't the RAF and the USAF also rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians during WW2?
Did that also make us no better than the Nazis we were fighting?
Jackdaw - "The fact that we may not like what a regime does to their countrymen is no reason for intervention."
This, in essence is the root of the problem with British foreign policy.
The British government perceive a threat (and sometimes a made-up threat will do!) and decides it has to go on and 'sort it out'.
Fundamentals like - a plan for now / a plan for the future / questioning if we have the resources / can we achieve our aim / have a we got an aim / will it work / what happens if it doesn't work / what if we make things worse / what if we let loads of soldiers die and nothing changes except it's worse / do we really know what we are doing???????
all get left behind - and STILL we don't learn our lessons.
There is some sort of vested interest in politicians not seeing the reality that history gives them time and time again, and that is really worrying.
This, in essence is the root of the problem with British foreign policy.
The British government perceive a threat (and sometimes a made-up threat will do!) and decides it has to go on and 'sort it out'.
Fundamentals like - a plan for now / a plan for the future / questioning if we have the resources / can we achieve our aim / have a we got an aim / will it work / what happens if it doesn't work / what if we make things worse / what if we let loads of soldiers die and nothing changes except it's worse / do we really know what we are doing???????
all get left behind - and STILL we don't learn our lessons.
There is some sort of vested interest in politicians not seeing the reality that history gives them time and time again, and that is really worrying.
/// You can't really trust any of them, And that assessment is based on past experience not prejudice. ///
Since you seem to be using past negative experiences of the Russian people in defence of your argument, perhaps you would care to enlighten us in some way?
We're talking about the Russian govt here not the "people" in general.
One example would be Georgia in 2008, where the agreement to withdraw its forces negotiated with President Sarkozy of France was blatantly ignored. To this day Russian troops not only occupy positions forward of the negotiated line, but have actually advanced a small distance!
Since you seem to be using past negative experiences of the Russian people in defence of your argument, perhaps you would care to enlighten us in some way?
We're talking about the Russian govt here not the "people" in general.
One example would be Georgia in 2008, where the agreement to withdraw its forces negotiated with President Sarkozy of France was blatantly ignored. To this day Russian troops not only occupy positions forward of the negotiated line, but have actually advanced a small distance!
"It is war, didn't the RAF and the USAF also rain bombs down indiscriminately on civilians during WW2?
Did that also make us no better than the Nazis we were fighting? "
Maybe not, and perhaps that's worth a separate question
Old Basher, of course, started killing his own people before the war actually started, which some might say was what caused a peaceful protest movement to degenerate into war.
Did that also make us no better than the Nazis we were fighting? "
Maybe not, and perhaps that's worth a separate question
Old Basher, of course, started killing his own people before the war actually started, which some might say was what caused a peaceful protest movement to degenerate into war.
ichkeria
Some peaceful protest.
/// The armed opposition consists of various groups that were formed during the course of the conflict, primarily the Free Syrian Army, which was the first to take up arms in 2011, and the Islamic Front, formed in 2013. In 2013, Hezbollah entered the war in support of the Syrian Army. In the east, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a jihadist militant group originating from Iraq, made rapid military gains in both Syria and Iraq, eventually conflicting with the other rebels. By July 2014, ISIL controlled a third of Syria's territory and most of its oil and gas production, thus establishing itself as the major opposition force. ///
Some peaceful protest.
/// The armed opposition consists of various groups that were formed during the course of the conflict, primarily the Free Syrian Army, which was the first to take up arms in 2011, and the Islamic Front, formed in 2013. In 2013, Hezbollah entered the war in support of the Syrian Army. In the east, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a jihadist militant group originating from Iraq, made rapid military gains in both Syria and Iraq, eventually conflicting with the other rebels. By July 2014, ISIL controlled a third of Syria's territory and most of its oil and gas production, thus establishing itself as the major opposition force. ///
You're quoting details about the war, which followed the peaceful Arab Spring of 2011.
Maybe you have forgotten the daily news reports of the bombing and shooting of crowds of protesters. The police opened fire on the very first demonstration and have been shooting and bombing ever since.
I don't know if it's maybe because Assad speaks English, being like his wife at least part educated in the UK, and has a faint air of the geeky intellectual about him (and doesn't have, for example, a dodgy moustache like Saddam, nor does he look deranged like Gaddafi) that some people have a problem with the fact that he's probably up there with the worst monsters in history.
Maybe you have forgotten the daily news reports of the bombing and shooting of crowds of protesters. The police opened fire on the very first demonstration and have been shooting and bombing ever since.
I don't know if it's maybe because Assad speaks English, being like his wife at least part educated in the UK, and has a faint air of the geeky intellectual about him (and doesn't have, for example, a dodgy moustache like Saddam, nor does he look deranged like Gaddafi) that some people have a problem with the fact that he's probably up there with the worst monsters in history.
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