Listener Threads

[jim360]

Look, I've seen some of the arguments, rudeness and the like emerging in the last two or three weeks. But two threads deleted entirely?! That's just not right. Not least because that basically seems to mean that from now on all EdgeofDarkness/ Meursault has to do is show up and bang, there goes the "rival" thread, as he appears to see it.

Deleting the whole thread, surely, is playing right into the hands of those who are stirring this argument. Any chance we could have the threads back in some peace? Or at least in future, can individual posts be targeted rather than the entire threads?

If Meursault's aim was to bring down the community here, then he appears to be succeeding by default.

[Cagey]

I seem to have missed this weeks arguments, but agree with Jim360. Why would a whole thread be removed, rather than individual posts, or barring someone's account?

[AB Editor]

Hi Jim,

I'm not up to speed on this - bear with me.

[AB Editor]

I've not been able to identify the removed threads you're talking about, could you let me know their subject or author please?

[sunny-dave]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UU0ipzjOaJwJ:www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question1398913.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1rS7RuR452cJ:www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question1398932.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

[jim360]

Hi,

Thanks. You might also want to look at a separate discussion on the self-declared "rival" forums. Irrespective of the strength of their arguments, it puts the current row into some context. Apparently there has been some amount of ill-feeling harboured for some time by a few people towards the current AB Listener thread, and perhaps even Meursault has done us all a favour by bringing it into the open.

http://www.crosswordsolver.org/forum/475779/listener-4332

[jim360]

Thanks to S-D for the links to the AB threads.

[borealis]

An alternative, maybe?
Wordpress, a google group, and a facebook group are the ones that come to mind, but I'm not an expert at this. Whoever sets it up is then a "moderator", and could (a) set guidelines and (b) remove posts that That would avoid the criticism that AB is for answers, and allow an AB thread that EoD and anyone else who thinks similarly to use.
Then it would indeed be a club.

[sunny-dave]

But a lot of the trouble started here :

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question1397277-2.html

One person determined to spoil the gentle fun of others by determined stirring and confrontation.

[Cloverjo]

The most recent arguments were between emcee and RuthRobin, who started to insult each other. That was nothing to do with Mersault's complaints about hints not " allowed" or the thread being treated as an exclusive club.

[jim360]

My interpretation of the whole thing is that Meursault's arguments sparked other sub-arguments -- RR's response to Meursault was described (in French) as pretentious by emcee, and so they fell out also.

The whole thing is totally ridiculous. I'd just like to discuss Listeners every weekend.

[easterfool]

I hope that I enter things correctly - really enjoyed this and the last Listener. My hat off to the setters of both. I don't understand all these references but I hope that things calm down and I can go on enjoying what people say after I have finished each Listener, even if normally I do not post any response. I am normally far too late in finishing anyway - no-one would be interested in my week old thoughts.

[olichant]

Quite right to set up a separate thread, Jim - good idea.

I may be naive, but I'd like to think that the majority of people on both boards (and other solvers who don't post) would regard all of this with detached bemusement. The whole "them and us" thing is really a bit silly - the idea that everyone who uses the crosswordsolver is a serial cheat (certainly not true) or that everyone who uses the answerbank is unfriendly, unhelpful or otherwise socially deficient (equally untrue).

I wouldn't in fact reject everything substantive that Meursault has said out of hand - there is a reasonable point to be made that a public forum is a public forum, and it's scarcely a criminal offence to post even wholesale spoilers. Equally, it seems completely reasonable that a group of people discuss their appreciation of a crossword publicly *without* wishing to give spoilers. Some may think that is pretentious, but I don't - it seems pretty sincere to me. And for what it is worth, I found the AB "community" (not clique!) pretty supportive a few years ago when I started doing the Listener - it was nice to be able to ask for hints but without spoiling the fun of discovering the theme of the crossword for myself. (My only real objection to wholesale sharing of answers is that it is really, really hard to do it without giving away the theme. But this is all a matter of personal taste).

The ultimate arguments for/against explicit discussion of live puzzles are pretty trivial, but it does genuinely sadden me that it should turn this sour, petty and personal. If a bunch of people who all like doing the Listener should fall out so violently, there's not much hope for the world!

[jim360]

I need to be more careful, apparently. Meursault found this picture of me:

http://s5.tinypic.com/1jowuq_th.jpg

(reference: http://www.crosswordsolver.org/forum/475779/offset/40 )

[Mampara]

An interesting question was posted on 'the other site'

///I have despaired reading some of the comments on what, after all is just a crossword.
I am though interested in how some posters
can have contrary views deleted.
On AB I see that the criteria for 'reporting' a
posting is one of-
Abusive content.
Profane content.
Pure Stupidity.
Racist Content.
Spam content.
Other.

As the reason for requesting the removal of
a posting would seem to be only 'other' I'd
love to know what reasons are given, strong
enough, to have a post deleted.
If it is 'giving too much information on a current
puzzle' I'd be amazed.///

Maybe the ED could elaborate on what the moderators consider
grounds for a deleted post. How does the Listener get treated any
different from any other 'advanced crossword'?

[Philoctetes]

As one of the ones who lodged a complaint about EoD's post, I can say that my grounds were exactly that - it is the convention in these threads not to give explicit answers. Whether this was the actual grounds for removal, I cannot say. I do not think having conventions like that make this a clique, as I am sure there are other similar groups on AB. There was nothing to stop anyone opening another thread asking for specific answers. What I do not understand is what has aroused EoD's fury to the extent that he appears to have hijacked two threads here and the one on Crosswordsolver, when a reasoned response would have been "Meh".

[jno]

it's up to the Ed to decide what grounds justify removal of a post. Moderators can do it off their own bat, but if the Ed disagrees he'll reinstate it. As far as I can see, name-calling comes under personal abuse and sometimes seems to be the basis for removal - but I don't know. You'd have to ask the Ed. He'd probably just point to the list of reasons already given, though.

I'm kind of glad I gave up crosswords and went over to sudokus, though. Who needs the bile?

[jim360]

It's amazing how much bile there can be over trivia on the internet. This really is about as trivial as it gets. There's a philosophy clash, but the community affected is just over 1,000 people worldwide who submit at least one puzzle per year. As I understand it, the convention arose mainly out of concern for the integrity of the annual statistics. People who don't submit aren't affected by that, and barely 20% of the rest would particularly care (getting 40+ right in the year).

In general it's the niche things that cause the biggest flare-ups in temper. I still remember, being shocked at the time, one of the more bitter rows over some technical point in Science. Two of the foremost experts in their field, and for two minutes the discussion didn't go much further than "No it isn't!", "Yes it is.", "NO IT ISN'T!!!!" and so on.

Roll on the rest of the Listener year, when solvers may get a chance to talk about/ ask for help with the puzzles in peace.