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Protocol, Politeness And Puzzles
23 Answers
Thanks Ed for some interesting responses here :
http://
Rather than further clutter up Smurf's thread, which has already turned into a mini "Q&A" session, how do you feel about the few 'self policing' topics (including The Listener threads - to which I contribute most weeks) where anything beyond a very general appreciation of the puzzle is quietly removed?
I happen to like the way that works, but it does sort of seem against the general ethos of the site?
Dave xx
http://
Rather than further clutter up Smurf's thread, which has already turned into a mini "Q&A" session, how do you feel about the few 'self policing' topics (including The Listener threads - to which I contribute most weeks) where anything beyond a very general appreciation of the puzzle is quietly removed?
I happen to like the way that works, but it does sort of seem against the general ethos of the site?
Dave xx
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"At which point does an objection to the number of questions being asked become reasonable?"
When it's all at once I would say, and they're only asking for answers - or being rude? Asking in a "spammy" way would probably be where I draw the line.
Even then, report it, don't get grumpy on the thread, as it still doesn't help anyone.
The point on the previous thread was that Smurf was just asking for clues - the ideal thing to ask for for everyone I'd think?
When it's all at once I would say, and they're only asking for answers - or being rude? Asking in a "spammy" way would probably be where I draw the line.
Even then, report it, don't get grumpy on the thread, as it still doesn't help anyone.
The point on the previous thread was that Smurf was just asking for clues - the ideal thing to ask for for everyone I'd think?
I only occasionally attempt The Listener crossword - and even more occasionally solve it. I think I liked the brief spell - which I don't think I've imagined! - last year, where this site had two Listener threads. One was the traditional appreciation thread, the other gave a little help. I've found that if I get assistance with a couple of clues in Mephisto, say, or Inquisitor (which is sometimes as hard as Listener), I can then go on to finish off the puzzle. The Listener appreciation thread is fine as far as it goes, but it's not helpful to would-be solvers/struggling solvers. Yes, I know the posters often say 'give me a throwaway email address and I'll send you a hint' - but I, for one, don't want that palaver.
I wouldn't care to venture into a Listener thread - way above my head apart from a Good Morning or a comment about the weather. Too erudite for me but I love to read some of the comments.
The wider issue of Quizzes is a different kettle however - the topic brings out the the best and the worst in all of us, I have long given up setting quizzes but that was on personal grounds nothing else.So I await the setters views on this matter.
As a keen quizzer it does sadden me to see swathes of questions asked from one quiz sheet , my response is to use the thread to advertise the quiz in the hope of boosting sales and also to mention if the setters wishes have been breached in any way.
I attempt this gently and still on occasions have had the 'quiz police' card played or been accused of sarcasm - however I can take that as I feel my replies are polite and I do contribute to the site as a whole.
At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think there will ever be a solution that sits happily with everyone - doesn't mean a debate can't be had and ideas exchanged all the same.
The wider issue of Quizzes is a different kettle however - the topic brings out the the best and the worst in all of us, I have long given up setting quizzes but that was on personal grounds nothing else.So I await the setters views on this matter.
As a keen quizzer it does sadden me to see swathes of questions asked from one quiz sheet , my response is to use the thread to advertise the quiz in the hope of boosting sales and also to mention if the setters wishes have been breached in any way.
I attempt this gently and still on occasions have had the 'quiz police' card played or been accused of sarcasm - however I can take that as I feel my replies are polite and I do contribute to the site as a whole.
At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think there will ever be a solution that sits happily with everyone - doesn't mean a debate can't be had and ideas exchanged all the same.
On a personal note regarding cryptic crosswords, my preference would be to avoid giving answers for prize puzzles - just gentle hints (eg tips about how a clue should be split to show where definitions/wordplay components/indicators are).
For most ABers the Listener is sacrosanct in that regard and setters appreciate it. It would be nice if the 15x15s could be respected in the same way.
For most ABers the Listener is sacrosanct in that regard and setters appreciate it. It would be nice if the 15x15s could be respected in the same way.
That's a very interesting point too, a lot of the Charity Quizzes under discussion are a few pounds as a prize (some exceptions to that of course) whereas Prize Crosswords can be a great deal more and yes, I rush to answer many of those.
I think it is the ethereal nature of crosswords that makes them a little different to a quiz that may have a few months to run - I realise this has brought out my hypocritical side but I am nothing but honest.
I think it is the ethereal nature of crosswords that makes them a little different to a quiz that may have a few months to run - I realise this has brought out my hypocritical side but I am nothing but honest.
I don't think "over-asking" for answers will ever be banned or discouraged.
The site has a vested interest (advertising revenue) which surely should try to actively encourage people to visit.
is it another case of the little guy sacrificed in the cause of profit?
Having said that, some quizzers' desperation to win £10 in a quiz seems rather disturbing too.
The site has a vested interest (advertising revenue) which surely should try to actively encourage people to visit.
is it another case of the little guy sacrificed in the cause of profit?
Having said that, some quizzers' desperation to win £10 in a quiz seems rather disturbing too.
"I don't think "over-asking" for answers will ever be banned or discouraged."
No, it won't - unless there is a very clear mandate from the community, which there isn't, just a few very vocal users. Or that is the way it seems to me currently.
"The site has a vested interest (advertising revenue) which surely should try to actively encourage people to visit."
Yep, one of the main sources of new visitors is through Google searches for quiz questions/clues.
"is it another case of the little guy sacrificed in the cause of profit?"
No, we are the little guy! We don't make a huge profit.
"Having said that, some quizzers' desperation to win £10 in a quiz seems rather disturbing too."
Yes!
No, it won't - unless there is a very clear mandate from the community, which there isn't, just a few very vocal users. Or that is the way it seems to me currently.
"The site has a vested interest (advertising revenue) which surely should try to actively encourage people to visit."
Yep, one of the main sources of new visitors is through Google searches for quiz questions/clues.
"is it another case of the little guy sacrificed in the cause of profit?"
No, we are the little guy! We don't make a huge profit.
"Having said that, some quizzers' desperation to win £10 in a quiz seems rather disturbing too."
Yes!
I agree that there is a difference between crosswords and other quizzes.
Crosswords seem as, mamya very astutely said, 'ephemeral' - today's crossword is tomorrow's (possibly digital) chip-paper. As such giving away a bunch of answers doesn't really matter too much - there will be another set of clues along shortly. Also, helping someone to complete a prize crossword still leaves them only a small chance of actually winning (1 in several thousands?).
Quizzes with a longevity of several months are somehow different - possibly because they tend to be more 'homegrown' rather than syndicated. Putting many/all the answers on view may reduce the appeal of the quiz to some potential buyers and solvers.
Also, giving someone who could only do (say) 50% unaided a "1 in not that many" chance of winning the prize seems less fair.
Is there a way of dealing with this? Probably not ... except the hoped-for "politeness and common sense".
Crosswords seem as, mamya very astutely said, 'ephemeral' - today's crossword is tomorrow's (possibly digital) chip-paper. As such giving away a bunch of answers doesn't really matter too much - there will be another set of clues along shortly. Also, helping someone to complete a prize crossword still leaves them only a small chance of actually winning (1 in several thousands?).
Quizzes with a longevity of several months are somehow different - possibly because they tend to be more 'homegrown' rather than syndicated. Putting many/all the answers on view may reduce the appeal of the quiz to some potential buyers and solvers.
Also, giving someone who could only do (say) 50% unaided a "1 in not that many" chance of winning the prize seems less fair.
Is there a way of dealing with this? Probably not ... except the hoped-for "politeness and common sense".
Not sure yet about your last point Ed, but I typed the following yesterday then events caught up with me & I didn't get a chance to post it, so I'll throw it in anyway...
With regard to the "Listener", I think it's just one of those things that there's always been an unwritten rule on the Web that people shouldn't ask for help. The same applies to the "Great British Quiz" (I think it's called) -
it's just not the done thing to ask for assistance. I have no idea how this came to be in the first place but have no gripe whatsoever with their "off-limits" status.
Of course, being a Q & A site makes it nigh-on impossible to police these subjects & the Topics in general without being accused of censoring the right of free speech.
On the whole, I don't believe there should be a problem if someone posts a thread titled "Listener XXXX - I really enjoyed this!" with a discussion by its solvers to follow. If someone then posts a request for help with 1d, thereby breaking that "code of etiquette", barring a gentle reminder that it's "not the done thing", I doubt the regular AB Listenerites (?) would post answers, but what's to stop an observer from joining & doing just that?
I recently stumbled on a site (& unforgivably failed to bookmark it!) that slated AB in particular for just such "slips", if we can call them that. I haven't seen any such but *am* guilty of not looking at every Listener thread. I stopped sending them in years ago when I just lost interest in them - particularly the maths-based & Playfair ones - hateful!
anax - although appreciating your personal viewpoint regarding full answers to Prize Cryptics, as Mamya indicates, they often have to be received back by post pretty quickly, whereas a quiz might have months to run. Quite a few AB'ers - particularly those new-ish to cryptic solving - have mentioned in the past that they appreciate the full parsing of an answer as it helps them learn the craft.
As to quizzes (although I do so few my opinion might not matter), I think those that have a flat-out "no-asking" policy or until a certain date are within their rights & would like to see such requests observed.
Asking for extra clues rather than outright answers seems ok to my mind. For the most part I tend not to answer Quiz Qs simply because I don't wish to upset anyone on either side of the argument - just as Dave says, "if in doubt, say nowt".
I believe a large part of the problem stems from the fact that some people seem simply too impatient to finish the puzzle/quiz on their own, being overly-keen to post their entries despite the quiz having weeks or months to run & often having to ask only a few Q's from a list of many, thereby proving that they're capable solvers.
Of course, the whole thing is an unwinnable Catch-22 situation that will never be solved to everyone's satisfaction.
With regard to the "Listener", I think it's just one of those things that there's always been an unwritten rule on the Web that people shouldn't ask for help. The same applies to the "Great British Quiz" (I think it's called) -
it's just not the done thing to ask for assistance. I have no idea how this came to be in the first place but have no gripe whatsoever with their "off-limits" status.
Of course, being a Q & A site makes it nigh-on impossible to police these subjects & the Topics in general without being accused of censoring the right of free speech.
On the whole, I don't believe there should be a problem if someone posts a thread titled "Listener XXXX - I really enjoyed this!" with a discussion by its solvers to follow. If someone then posts a request for help with 1d, thereby breaking that "code of etiquette", barring a gentle reminder that it's "not the done thing", I doubt the regular AB Listenerites (?) would post answers, but what's to stop an observer from joining & doing just that?
I recently stumbled on a site (& unforgivably failed to bookmark it!) that slated AB in particular for just such "slips", if we can call them that. I haven't seen any such but *am* guilty of not looking at every Listener thread. I stopped sending them in years ago when I just lost interest in them - particularly the maths-based & Playfair ones - hateful!
anax - although appreciating your personal viewpoint regarding full answers to Prize Cryptics, as Mamya indicates, they often have to be received back by post pretty quickly, whereas a quiz might have months to run. Quite a few AB'ers - particularly those new-ish to cryptic solving - have mentioned in the past that they appreciate the full parsing of an answer as it helps them learn the craft.
As to quizzes (although I do so few my opinion might not matter), I think those that have a flat-out "no-asking" policy or until a certain date are within their rights & would like to see such requests observed.
Asking for extra clues rather than outright answers seems ok to my mind. For the most part I tend not to answer Quiz Qs simply because I don't wish to upset anyone on either side of the argument - just as Dave says, "if in doubt, say nowt".
I believe a large part of the problem stems from the fact that some people seem simply too impatient to finish the puzzle/quiz on their own, being overly-keen to post their entries despite the quiz having weeks or months to run & often having to ask only a few Q's from a list of many, thereby proving that they're capable solvers.
Of course, the whole thing is an unwinnable Catch-22 situation that will never be solved to everyone's satisfaction.
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