London Transport

[iloveglee]

Please can someone help me out with transport costs for children 11-15 because you need a degree to sort it out. we are going to london for the day with three kids of this age, so an oyster card is not really an option for them. the contactless cards cap for the adults is easy to work out, but the child fares seem to be a minefield to me. we have a friends and family railcard and have read somewhere, although not on the london transport website, that you can get a highly discounted day ticket for kids of this age. the railcard website however, says you can get a third off travel cards for london, which are bought alongside the ticket to london. subject to minimum prices for the rail fare. i have looked at buying tickets to london, and it seems that the only ones you can actually add a london transport ticket are the very high priced ones. does london actually want tourists to visit the city.

[SeaJayPea]

This seems fairly clear.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/travelling-with-children

[iloveglee]

it does seem clear. but then the link mentioned at the bottom about restrictions, takes you to the railcard website, which is not clear at all. no mention of the cheap railcard, just about a third discount and minimum prices of ticket purchased

[Buenchico]

Simply get Oyster cards for the adults and purchase Off-Peak Day Travelcards (using your Family Railcard) each day for the children.

'Off-Peak' with a Travelcard is anytime from 0930 onwards from Monday to Friday (and all day at weekends). Unlike when using Oyster Cards, there is no 'evening peak' when using a Travelcard.

So you'll pay 3 x £2.30 per day for the children, totalling £20.70 for them for all three days. That figure is fixed irrespective of how many journeys are made and how many zones are passed through. (What the adults will pay from their Oyster Card credit, however, will depend upon whether journeys occur during the evening peak, how many journeys are made and how many zones are passed through. Alternatively the adults could also purchase Day Travelcards but the capping system for Oyster Cards means that they can never pay more with an Oyster Card than when using Day Travelcards).

[iloveglee]

thanks for that. we have used day travel cards before but have been driving to north london, parking and using the underground. this time we are coming on the train and will have a friends and family railcard. the link in the first response appears to be very clear, £2.35 for a kids day pass age 11-15, on presentation of the railcard at various locations. at the bottom of this page, though, is a link to the railcard website, for further information and restrictions. this is where is gets less clear. this leads you to believe you have had to purchase a rail ticket for a certain amount of money, and purchased the day pass at the same time. this doesnt appear to be possible booking the rail tickets online, unless you purchase a very expensive ticket. so the two different websites appear to contradict each other. for the adults, using a contactless card appears to be an alternative to buying an oyster card, with a similar cap. had i just taken the information from the london transport site, it would have been very simple as you say.

[iloveglee]

I have discovered that we can use our oap bus passes in London. I was under the impression that they were not valid in the city. so, I think its going have to be bus and walk. we'll just have to wing it, and try for the travel passes when we get to st pancras. presumably the travel passes for the kids include all modes of transport. if we have to use the underground, I guess we will have to use our contactless cards and pay.

[Buenchico]

Senior citizen bus passes issued in England are valid anywhere in the country (including London) between 0930 and 2300 (and at any time at weekends). Those issued within London (to residents of the city) are also valid on the Underground but, regrettably, those issued elsewhere in England aren't.

As you've suggested in your post, Day Travelcards for children can be used on all buses, Underground services and trams (but not on river buses or the Emirates Air Line).

***IMPORTANT BIT*** > > > However, as I read the information from SeaJayPeas link, they are only valid when they are accompanied by a railcard holding adult with a valid ticket. i.e. if you've not got a ticket (because you're using your bus pass) the children's Day Travelcards won't be valid.

So you'll probably need to get Oyster cards (or adult off-peak Day Travelcards) anyway. Further, the buses in London can really crawl on some routes. (For example, to get from one end of Oxford Street to the other, it's usually much quicker to walk than to take a bus). So you'll end up with some very bored kids if you use buses rather than the Tube.

I used to take school trips to London. If you'd like a few tips for places to visit, please see my posts here:
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/ChatterBank/Question1082389.html

If you'll allow me to add to that, I suggest heading to Docklands (using the driverless trains on the DLR, which can be quite fun in itself) to visit the excellent Museum of London Docklands
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/docklands/
together with The Crystal
https://www.thecrystal.org/visit-the-exhibition/
They're both free and fit in well with a trip on the cable car across the Thames. (It's not expensive):
http://www.emiratesairline.co.uk/

Have fun!

[iloveglee]

thanks for that very useful information. can I just clarify, to get the child's day pass, you say the railcard holder has to have a ticket. do you mean a bus or tube ticket, or a ticket for travelling on national rail. we will have national rail tickets as we will be travelling to London on the train, but as you say if we are using our bus passes, will not have a bus ticket. sure gets complicated doesn't it. if I buy these passes, presumably the kids can use them on the underground, as we would have to buy a ticket on the underground, we would use our contactless card so we can get a daily cap if we do this. we would prefer not to use the underground especially around Christmas as it is going to be mayhem - well at least it was last time we came around Christmas. our plan, is to go to the southbank centre for the Christmas markets (kids idea not mine! - but better than battling hyde park). we were planning to take the bus for this part of the route. then we were going to walk to covent garden, then up regent street and onto oxford street for the lights. seems like quite a bit of ground to cover. I had thought of oyster cards, but took exception to having to pay £5 for the card, refundable its true, but then have to pay £3 to activate it, especially as we can get free bus travel. I expect the only other alternative for a single journey is to forget the day pass, and use the contactless cards on the bus for the kids. I thought public transport was complicated where we live, but I feel I could sit an exam in London transport before too long. I agree that the best way to get around is to walk, and they are pretty good at walking I must admit, its probably the olds that will flag.

[iloveglee]

I have just re-read the link from SeaJayPeas and admit I am more confused than ever. I had read it, as mentioned, that when you buy it, you have to show your railcard, and I assumed that you would have to show a valid train ticket as well. but I admit, it certainly could be read that you have to have a valid ticket to travel, on the mode of transport you are accompanying the children on. this then assumes that the said children cannot travel on their own using this pass.

[Buenchico]

I think that you've now read the information correctly, ILG but it's definitely not 100% clear.

Trying to find a telephone number to get an accurate answer might be difficult as well, The staff answering TfL's phone lines are basically just reading bus and train times off their screens; they probably haven't got a clue about the intricacies of ticketing. You could give them a try on 0343 222 1234. (Lines open 24 hours per day. Charged at the same rate as normal 01 or 02 numbers - which might be free if you've got 'included minutes' on your mobile package or if you've got a landline account with free calls).

You could also try to find an online enquiry form here:
https://tfl.gov.uk/help-and-contact/
However I've just tried myself and I had to go via an 'untrusted connection' warning and indicate that I wanted to make an enquiry about buses, only to end up with a form that demanded the date and time of the incident I was complaining about!

Some hints for the Tube anyway: Even when the trains are really packed, so that in most carriages you're standing with your nose pressed into someone's armpit, the first and last carriages are often only lightly-loaded, so that you can easily get seats. (So always go to the ends of the platforms).

To get to the Southbank Centre (where you might also encounter me browsing the Christmas Market, BTW!) it's often easier to go to Embankment Station than to Waterloo (because it's on the Circle Line and therefore accessible from lots of other places) and then walk over the footbridge across the Thames. Now that most of the Circle Line trains are the new, airy ones (where you can walk between the carriages), it's also a much more pleasant experience to use them than some of the older rolling stock on the Northern Line.

The walk from the Southbank Centre to Covent Garden is easy enough, over Waterloo Bridge. Bistro 1 is on the edge of Covent Garden (in Southampton Street) and extremely popular with many AB members, including me. An excellent two course lunch there costs £9.90:
http://bistro1.co.uk/menus/bistro1-restaurant-lunch-menu.pdf

If you're walking from there to Oxford Street, it's easy enough to detour either via Trafalgar Square (where you'll find the National Gallery and the National Portrait Gallery) or Bloomsbury (for the British Museum). Many of the exhibits in those places would bore the pants of most teenagers but if you're extremely selective you should find something to interest your trio. (In particular, I recommend the Taylor Wessing Photographic Portrait Prize exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery, which is round the back of the National Gallery).

It's still a bit of a hike to get to, and along Oxford street. Theoretically the best way to see the lights is from the top deck of a bus but even getting on a bus can prove to be difficult (because they're so crowded). It can also take over an hour for a bus to get from one end of Oxford Street to the other in the Christmas rush (written from experience!), so it's far quicker to walk, even with the vast volumes of people thronging the pavement. (I love crowds, so Oxford Street, just before Christmas, is one of my favourite places - but I can well understand why others hate it!).

How well do the children already know London? If they're not familiar with the South Kensington museums, then I'm surprised that you've not included them in your itinerary. They're far more interesting than the Oxford Street lights - and they're all free!
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/

http://www.vam.ac.uk/

[dzug2]

Surely your bus passes are valid tickets to travel?

As is your contactless card if you pay for an adult tube fare that way

So the kids will accompanied at all times by a ticket holder.


.Senior citizen bus passes issued in England are valid anywhere in the country (including London) between 0930 and 2300.

The time restriction in London has been abolished.

[Jackdaw33]

Do TFL no longer do family travel cards?

[iloveglee]

as always full of useful information. this trip is purely for the 'christmas experience', as chosen by the kids. (well the girls anyway). that is, shopping, christmas markets, christmas lights etc. we usually bring them in the summer for the day, and see the other sights, the museums etc. we have done science, and natural history museums, at least what you can see in part of a day. havent yet done the british museum, but my experience of it was that you would need a week, just to find your way about. we are keeping that for next summer, and may well take a guided tour just to stop ourselves from wasting time trying to find our way about. we have been to greenwich with them on the dlr, and on a boat trip. one of them has visited house of commons with school but we hope to do that sometime with the other two. our plan this time, was to get the bus from st pancras to the southbank centre, and walk everywhere else. if it started to look like we were going to be late for our train, then it would have to be a taxi anyway. from what i can make out a single bus fare is £1.50 using a contactless card, so for one journey it wouldnt make sense to get a day ticket anyway. we have several contactless cards so each child could use one. and our bus passes would get the oap's free anyway. i feel the underground is wasted because we like to see stuff, just walking around. of course, we cant legislate for the weather and might have to re-organise around that on the day. we have to book our train tickets quite a bit in advance in order not to have to take out a mortgage to pay for them. i think if we plan well ahead, for all eventualities, we can make the most of our day.

[Buenchico]

If you're looking for the 'Christmas experience' in London, don't forget that, as you walk across Waterloo Bridge to get from the Southbank Centre to Covent Garden, you'll be passing Somerset House. The kids would probably love to go ice skating there!
https://www.somersethouse.org.uk/ice-rink/times-and-tickets

Have fun with whatever you do!

[iloveglee]

thank you so much for all this useful information. I think I can now plan a really nice route for them, with only one bus ride, and loads of walking. hope it doesn't rain. but we have plastic ponchos so what if it does!! as everyone has got so much useful information as their fingertips, I wonder if someone can tell me where the oxford lights start and end. I remember walking down part of oxford street a couple of years ago around Christmas but we had done some of the journey on the underground so have no idea where we started from. we were on the way back to the station using a mobile phone map, so turned off to go the quickest way, but again have no clue where we turned off either!! not too keen on mobile phone maps, much prefer a paper map so will try to get hold of one.

[Buenchico]

As far as I can recall, the lights are along the whole of Oxford Street 'proper' (i.e. excluding New Oxford Street). So that's from Tottenham Court Road to Marble Arch.

However the lights that they're using this year are the rather boring 'glowing orbs' that they had last year. They might not be as gaudy as some of the displays from earlier years but they're nowhere near as interesting. You might enjoy the lights in Regent Street and Bond Street better:
http://www.timeout.com/london/things-to-do/christmas-lights-in-london

For a map of the area you'll be travelling within (complete with all the bus route numbers), click here:
http://i68.tinypic.com/65o669.jpg
Then click on the image for a larger view.
To save it to your computer, right-click on it and select 'Save image as' (or whatever equivalent term your browser uses).
One way (of several) to print it out is to open a new, blank Word document and use Page Layout > Orientation to select Landscape format. Then go to Insert > Picture, navigate to the location of the image file and double-click on it. It will probably be a fairly good fit to the page anyway but, if not, you can drag the 'handles' at the corners of the image to change its size. Then print as normal.

That map is derived from a screen capture of part of the full Central London Bus Map, which can be found here:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/central-london-bus-map.pdf

[iloveglee]

thanks buenchico the map is really useful. i believe i had planned our walking route to take us along regent street up to oxford circus, then along to tottenham court road. we can turn off here and get ourselves to st pancras without too much trouble. not a particularly long stretch of oxford street but enough i think, with the inevitable stop stops with girls. these are our plans for a dry day, if its raining then we might have to rethink and possible take in more underground. they seem happy with the plan though so im grateful for all the information thats helped me to plan it.