Homeopathic Mange Treatment For Foxes

[vetuste_ennemi]

Is this effective? If so, how?

We were "treating" a fox for sarcoptic mange a few years ago using medicine supplied by the National Fox Welfare Society, but stopped when we realised the "medecine" was homeopathic. They gave good reasons for not supplying conventional medecines to the public, but couldn't convince me that the homeopathic alternative worked. Can any of you guys convince me otherwise?

This from their website:

http://www.nfws.org.uk/mange/Mange_FAQ.html

[jim360]

How were you administering the treatment?

I'm (obviously) not going to waste any time persuading you that it works, because it doesn't (at least not actively), but I was curious how it's administered in this case.

[vetuste_ennemi]

The advice was to put drops of the liquid on to pieces of bread and jam, Jim. (Jam, Jim? Did I just say that?). Apparently foxes have a sweet tooth (I know because we regularly feed foxes), while the other common garden visitors cats don't.

I want to believe that it works because we have a young fox whom we see regularly who's suffering from mange.

[woofgang]

well if they will send it for nothing....why not just use it.....if your option is to treat with the free stuff or not with no other options....then I can't see why you wouldn't.

[vetuste_ennemi]

We always donated when we ordered the treatment, Woofgang - it's quite expensive for NFWS to post it. Don't want to waste their money or mine. But as it can do the fox no harm, but may do it some good, then perhaps you're right. Just that I find it difficult to believe in "we don't know why or how it works; it just does".

[Khandro]

The only way it could possibly work would be as a placebo; the problem is v_e, you will have to convince the fox that it is actually 'proper effective medicine', and foxes are too smart to fall for such hokum.

[vetuste_ennemi]

NFWS asks, quite reasonably, "why would we supply it if we weren't convinced it worked?", Khandro. On the other hand they say that they use conventional treatments in-house, which, if both treatments are equally effective, seems strange as the something-in-me medicine is presumably dearer than the nothing-in-me alternative.

[jim360]

Methinks they doth protest too much, for sure. Still, there's some sense in being hesitant to provide something more "active" if it's also potentially dangerous when used improperly.

[vetuste_ennemi]

This from the relevant paragraph from the FAQ, Jim:

"Why do you send out an homeopathic Free Treatment for mange in foxes when there is conventional treatment available?

We send out the homeopathic treatment because it’s safe and effective. We have been sending out this treatment for over 20 years with brilliant results. We are not homeopaths and we do use conventional medicine when we have hands on with a fox. The conventional mange treatment Ivomectin, can be very dangerous for many reasons. The first being that if a dog with any collie line in it, was to take food meant for the fox that was laced with Ivomectin it could kill the dog. Since the life cycle of the mite is three weeks, Ivomectin is best given once a week for three weeks. If you were to miss a dose, it wouldn’t be effective. Also to try to target just one fox, when you are likely to have more than one visiting is very hit and miss. We have also found that for a fox with advanced mange, this could prove to be the kill rather than the cure. When one thinks how many mites are living and breeding on the host and one injection kills them all, the toxins from all these dead mites can overload an already overstretched immune system. We feel that a fox with advanced mange should be brought in a stabilised with re-hydration fluids and antibiotics before conventional mange treatment starts. Many think of homeopathic treatments as the placebo effect, but since foxes are not aware they are being treated with alternative medicine, the placebo effect can’t work. We send it our free of charge, why would we, if we didn’t think it was effective?".

I'm more convinced by the "why we don't" part than by the "why we do".

[EDDIE51]

Homeopathic treatments only work due to the Placebo effect. You need to believe it works for it to have any effect.
As a fox can not know it is being treated or believe in the treatment , there can be no effect.
However in humans the placebo effect is very real .
Details here
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect
But the crucial point is that the patient MUST believe in the treatment for it to work. As a wild fox can not possible believe in a treatment it does not even know it is getting , the placebo effect can not take place.
Mind you, I would not rule out that the humans putting out the homeopathic placebo may believe in it so much they convince themselves it does work.

[vetuste_ennemi]

It's this claim which needs verification, Eddie:

"We send out the homeopathic treatment because it’s safe and effective. We have been sending out this treatment for over 20 years with brilliant results.".

You're suggesting the evidence is anecdotal - NFWS asks punter if treatment worked, punter says "yes". It's possible most punters don't realise that many foxes may visit the garden each night and see the mangy one for a week or twos and then a healthy one.

[EDDIE51]

The first part of the statement 'It is safe', I 100% agree with, it is safe because it is just pure water with a little sugar. They are hardly going to say
''our treatment is worthless, but we make lot's of money from the donations we are given , by the gullible'
I also agree that you may be seeing several different foxes as they all look much the same.

[woofgang]

In that case it depends on how much you cough up for it.....

[EDDIE51]

The really daft thing about Homeopathic remedies is that they say the most effective are also the most diluted. Each successive dilution is said to increase the effectiveness of the solution.
The most effective is one that has no molecules of the original substance left in it at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions

[EDDIE51]

^ By the way years ago I had a hernia operation at the Royal London Homeopathic hospital , but it has now been renamed.
http://www.dcscience.net/2010/09/07/royal-london-homeopathic-hospital-rebranded-but-how-different-will-things-be-at-the-royal-london-hospital-for-integrated-medicine/
Luckily they used real medicine and anesthetic !
I was able to get treated very quickly as it had a very short, or nonexistent waiting list, I wonder why that may have been ?

[Khandro]

I think Molière's dictum in Le malade imaginaire, applies to homeopathy for foxes as well as humans;
The art is to keep the patient pleasantly occupied, while nature effects a cure.

[webbo3]

http://foxproject.org.uk/fox-facts/sarcoptic-mange/

I got some from these people and it worked.

Dave.

[webbo3]

I should add that my fox had mild mange and it is now completely cleared up, we also wormed her and treated her for fleas, she arrives almost every night for her, chicken, dog treats, eggs, and cocktail sausages.


Dave.

[jim360]

Strictly speaking, you got some, gave it to the fox, and the fox got better. That's not the same as "it worked".

People used to get better after having a course of leeches. That was not because of the leeches. As long as there's no reason to suspect a causal connection, because there's no active agent (in your link, for example, "psorinum 30c" means psorinum diluted in water at the ratio of one part in 10^60, ie psorinum 30c is literally water), then you can't really look on a fox getting better as definitive evidence of anything.

It's the usual problem of disentangling correlation with causation. How do you administer these treatments? Apparently, in jam and other sweet foodstuffs. Maybe after all foxes are capable of "enjoying" food in a way that makes them feel better? Maybe the more varied diet helps improve their condition. Maybe the fox would have got better anyway. Or maybe it works after all. But in the long run you need to find a proper, meaningful way of disentangling "working" from "coincidental".

[vetuste_ennemi]

Thanks to all of you for the comments thus far.

[woofgang]

I think its fairly well accepted that a healthy and unstressed animal stands less chance of catching mange and more chance of throwing it off than a sick or poorly nourished one......maybe simply the care and better food given to foxes by people tips the balance for them?