Yippee! I Hope The Uk Is Next To Ban This. Dog Breeding.

[ladybirder]

What say you dog lovers?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10468391/Norway-BANS-breeding-British-bulldogs-Cavalier-King-Charles-Spaniels.html

[pixie374]

I think it's a difficult one. We've definitely bred problems into dogs, by going with popularity over health, in the past. Although I would hope there's a bit more awareness now.
I have a very happy, healthy cavalier who is nearly 11. My view is that it doesn't help that so many seem to be overweight.
Pugs seem to have a lot of problems, and many other breeds. I always thought there were obvious benefits with mixes, although the professionals on here, don't seem to agree.

[lankeela]

Rather than try to convince you myself here is our KC response:

Our KC statement on breeding ban in Norway
The Kennel Club is concerned about the court ruling which bans the breeding of Bulldogs and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels in Norway. The Kennel Club feels this is not a solution to prevent poor breeding practices or any of the complex health issues some of these dogs within the breeds can face. This absolute approach, which will be difficult to enforce, could further fuel the ongoing crisis of irresponsible breeders, illegal puppy smuggling and uninformed puppy buyers, and actually worsen the issues that the legislation seeks to address.
Whilst we have not yet seen the full judgement, we know that outright breed bans do not work - we have seen this in the UK where attempts were made in 1991 with the Dangerous Dogs Act. This has simply served to drive the breeding of these dogs underground, leading to large numbers of unregistered animals, where it is impossible to reach the breeders or buyers of these dogs or have any impact on the breed’s health and welfare. It also can further fuel the health and welfare crisis of illegally bred and imported dogs. In the UK, we are seeing disreputable puppy traders producing unregistered dogs – bred under no sphere of influence – with extreme features, under the radar, which is having a universally agreed and extremely negative impact on dog health and welfare.
The Kennel Club believes a more effective approach is to continue to work collaboratively with breeders, vets, scientists and welfare organisations to research, understand and take evidence-based actions – via tools like the Respiratory Function Grading Scheme (please visit thekennelclub.org.uk/RFGS) for Bulldogs – to reduce and ultimately eliminate the health problems that these breeds can face, and to educate and influence uninformed puppy buyers and breeders.
The Kennel Club and The Kennel Club Charitable Trust remain committed to research and funding which ensures better understanding of Bulldog and Cavalier King Charles Spaniel health, and provides the foundations for evidence-based tools to help breeders to produce healthy puppies.

[barry1010]

No, no, no.
Norwegians will still be able to buy these puppies from other countries and import them. The Norway government will have no way of ensuring that those puppies are bred responsibly.

Some people are going to make a lot of money out of this.

[pixie374]

Lankeela, it says that towards the end of the link as well.

[barry1010]

This country clamped down on illegal breeding, buying pups from pet shops and unlicensed breeders.
It led to a huge amount of 'rescued' dogs being brought in from countries like Romania. A very questionable business in my opinion

[pixie374]

They only seem to be banning some "selective" breeding. But I thought the point with selective, is that you take care of any health issues too.
They are saying in Norway, there are none of those breeds left, that are healthy enough to breed from. Not sure if that's the case here with any.

[ladybirder]

What is the answer then?

[lankeela]

One answer would be an advertising campaign to persuade puppy buyers to only buy from reputable breeders who health test and only breed from healthy parents. Another would be to ban online adverts which are full of all manner of poorly bred dogs of dubious breeding. The problem is people see them and think they are rare because they are unusual colours or shapes, and the conmen who are selling them are good at marketing. People these days are not prepared to wait for the right dog - I have a litter of puppies at present and some of my puppy buyers have been waiting for two years or more for one of mine and I don't have to advertise as they are all booked long before they are born. They are also half the price of some of these so called designed dogs that are basically crossbreeds with fancy names.

[pastafreak]

I remember an article I read several years ago, comparing today's bulldog with the breed of over 100 years ago. The difference is both shocking and upsetting. I think there are breeders now who are trying to return to the original bulldog type. That should be encouraged.

[lankeela]

Here is an example - a litter of 'silver' Labradors - but Labradors don't come in silver and their heads are far too narrow so it is obvious they have been crossed with a Weimaraner or something similar. People think they are buying a rare silver Labrador so pay the £3000 they are asking!

[pixie374]

I agree, pasta. Humans bred the problems into different breeds originally and the good ones are trying to breed them out again.

[pixie374]

Many won't care though, lankeela. They get a dog they like the look of, and won't be worried what other breeds are in it. Cross-breeds still live on average longer and healthier, so it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[pastafreak]

Never heard of silver Labradors before...so I had to Google.
Lots of info here about how they "might" have come about. Makes one suspicious as there is always someone who wants to make a buck.

https://www.thelabradorsite.com/silver-labradors/

[lankeela]

Pixie I am afraid I cannot agree that crossbreeds live longer and are healthier than purebred dogs. That is a myth perpetuated by the breeders - and any dog bred from parents with health problems can pass them on eg Cockapoos can have all the problems that Cocker Spaniels and Poodles get if they carry the genes for them.

[pixie374]

Yes, health issues could be passed on with any parents of course.
Google says //In all size groups (small, medium, large, and giant), mixed breed dogs live longer than purebred dogs, although the difference is not that large. The study found that, on average, a mixed-breed dog lives for 14.45 years compared to 14.14 years for a purebred dog.// although I know it isn't always accurate.

However, I still think it goes without saying, that the more varied the genes are (the less inbreeding) the better. I still don't understand why dogs are the only animals not included.
I think we've already done the damage now, so it's a case of trying to undo a lot of it.

[lankeela]

How many of you who are dog owners know the inbreeding COI of your dogs?

[pixie374]

I don't even know what that means? But surely.... purebreeds must have more? That's what I don't get. My two cavaliers were both carefully bred by experienced, registered breeders and one had heart problems and one doesn't.
I'm not disagreeing with you, lankeela, just asking and clarifying.

[lankeela]

Put it this way if Joe Bloggs mates his dog to Fred Smith's dog from the farm up the road who are both purebred but don't have any papers for them how do they know they are not brother and sister? Even if two dogs are the same breed they can be complete outcrosses (that is not closely related rather than of different breeds). Only if breeders have a full records of their dog's ancestors can they be certain they are not inbred.

[pixie374]

Yes, exactly. Thanks. It was the genetics I was wondering about. In theory, without any human selection, would you expect a pure bred (as your example, say) to be healthier than a crossbreed? With two random individuals.

[1ozzy]

Only dogs with inherent medical issues should be banned from being bred by money making humans.