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Canine aggression
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Hiya.
Just returned from Jack's (Collie-3 y-o) 6 month MOT at the vet.
Vet (who is male) handled Jack quite roughly, taking the lead and pulling him about a bit.
Anyway, Jack rolled over, and the vet said i would have to watch this, as it is actually aggression, rather than submission (which, in his words, "doesn't exist"). Do people agree? Have people experienced this? If so, what steps have they taken to tackle it?
I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions-I know some of you are v. knowledgeable on doggy subjects :)
Thanks x
Just returned from Jack's (Collie-3 y-o) 6 month MOT at the vet.
Vet (who is male) handled Jack quite roughly, taking the lead and pulling him about a bit.
Anyway, Jack rolled over, and the vet said i would have to watch this, as it is actually aggression, rather than submission (which, in his words, "doesn't exist"). Do people agree? Have people experienced this? If so, what steps have they taken to tackle it?
I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions-I know some of you are v. knowledgeable on doggy subjects :)
Thanks x
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How many qualifications in behaviour has this vet got?!
Sorry but I would not take much notice of a vet giving an opinion on behaviour - especially if he was handling the dog that roughly! I think that vets should stick to what they know and are trained in.
I would also make sure that I did not see that vet again.
If you don't have any problems with Jack then I would not worry too much.
I saw a vet last year with my dog, he supposedly knew all about the breed, walked over and tried to open my dogs mouth (without any warning to me) to look at his teeth, my dog snapped and warned him off - the idiot then tried it again! Got the hairs shaved off his hand for his trouble! My dog is no way aggressive - a child can handle him easily.
I know of another vet that is so terrified of dogs that every dog above the size of a Yorkie he insists on being muzzled.
Vets are not taught about behaviour at vet school and although they may be very knowledgeable about medical matters very few have qualifications in behaviour. Many cannot identify the different breeds of dog.
If you are concerned about Jack's behaviour then I would go to a qualified/experienced behaviourist/trainer.
Sorry but I would not take much notice of a vet giving an opinion on behaviour - especially if he was handling the dog that roughly! I think that vets should stick to what they know and are trained in.
I would also make sure that I did not see that vet again.
If you don't have any problems with Jack then I would not worry too much.
I saw a vet last year with my dog, he supposedly knew all about the breed, walked over and tried to open my dogs mouth (without any warning to me) to look at his teeth, my dog snapped and warned him off - the idiot then tried it again! Got the hairs shaved off his hand for his trouble! My dog is no way aggressive - a child can handle him easily.
I know of another vet that is so terrified of dogs that every dog above the size of a Yorkie he insists on being muzzled.
Vets are not taught about behaviour at vet school and although they may be very knowledgeable about medical matters very few have qualifications in behaviour. Many cannot identify the different breeds of dog.
If you are concerned about Jack's behaviour then I would go to a qualified/experienced behaviourist/trainer.
kita-thanks. He told me he is "always watching" dogs and their body language. I think he wad trying to assert himself with Jack, but I think he went about it the wrong way, especially as the vet knows him. Previously he has been OK, but he was kind of cocky today, and didn't handle Jack well, despite knowing he is a nervy dog. I don't want to make excuses for Jack, especially if he is behaving inappropriately.
He is a great dog at home, we have no problems with him. After settling his separation anxiety, he has been no problem at all. Out of the house, he is nervous around men, but warms to them soon enough if they are gentle and a little nonchalant. Fine with women, OK with other dogs, especially off the lead, can't go near kids really. But that's manageable. He is obedient and behaves well, and that's all we want.
How careless was your vet to just go ahead and interfere in a dog's mouth?! He was lucky it was only hair he lost!
And as for the vet who insists on muzzling: he wouldn't have my custom! I am sure size doesn't play much of a role in biting-I know some toothy terriers!
Thanks for your advice. x
He is a great dog at home, we have no problems with him. After settling his separation anxiety, he has been no problem at all. Out of the house, he is nervous around men, but warms to them soon enough if they are gentle and a little nonchalant. Fine with women, OK with other dogs, especially off the lead, can't go near kids really. But that's manageable. He is obedient and behaves well, and that's all we want.
How careless was your vet to just go ahead and interfere in a dog's mouth?! He was lucky it was only hair he lost!
And as for the vet who insists on muzzling: he wouldn't have my custom! I am sure size doesn't play much of a role in biting-I know some toothy terriers!
Thanks for your advice. x
Oh, it's part of his annual petplan, kita. I pay �10/month, and that covers all of his flea and worm treatment, his annual boosters and the "free" halfway healthcheck at 6 months. It just helps me to spread the cost of his health care, so I know he's covered. That's on top of his insurance!
Believe me, there's no way I'd be coerced into paying for anything unneccesarily-I am half Yorkshire, half Scottish! ;)
Believe me, there's no way I'd be coerced into paying for anything unneccesarily-I am half Yorkshire, half Scottish! ;)
This sounds similar to what Jack was doing (but without the urination bit).
http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/1/behaviour.htm#SUBMIS SIVE%20URINATION
Click on the Submissive Urination bit.
This is written by a qualified behaviourist who has worked with rescue dogs for many years.
Submission certainly does exist. Jack was in a position where he could not run, this man was handling him roughly and Jack was held on a lead confined in a room. If he was being aggressive in that situation he would have gone at the vet snarling and barking, no way would he have rolled over and exposed his belly!
Sorry but these vets make me so mad!!
http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/1/behaviour.htm#SUBMIS SIVE%20URINATION
Click on the Submissive Urination bit.
This is written by a qualified behaviourist who has worked with rescue dogs for many years.
Submission certainly does exist. Jack was in a position where he could not run, this man was handling him roughly and Jack was held on a lead confined in a room. If he was being aggressive in that situation he would have gone at the vet snarling and barking, no way would he have rolled over and exposed his belly!
Sorry but these vets make me so mad!!
kita, I am absolutely in agreement! They can be so presumptious.
We actully don't use the female vet at that practice, because she p***ed me off so much the first few times we saw her! She was so patronising, and had this awful air of knowing better than everyone else. Worse still, because when we first moved here we were on the PDSA scheme, she assumed that we were incapable of looking after Jack. I could just sense it in everything she said to us, as if she had to dumb down what she was saying. After that, I couldn't be done with her!
I would agree that submission does exist, I know everyone holds different opinions on dog behaviour etc., but to be so forceful and polemic about an opinion shouldn't be right.
Ah, I do love that site, kita! I m no doggy expert, but I do read a lot about dogs: they interest me, and I want to make sure Jack is as happy and content as possible, too.
x
We actully don't use the female vet at that practice, because she p***ed me off so much the first few times we saw her! She was so patronising, and had this awful air of knowing better than everyone else. Worse still, because when we first moved here we were on the PDSA scheme, she assumed that we were incapable of looking after Jack. I could just sense it in everything she said to us, as if she had to dumb down what she was saying. After that, I couldn't be done with her!
I would agree that submission does exist, I know everyone holds different opinions on dog behaviour etc., but to be so forceful and polemic about an opinion shouldn't be right.
Ah, I do love that site, kita! I m no doggy expert, but I do read a lot about dogs: they interest me, and I want to make sure Jack is as happy and content as possible, too.
x
We used to have a vet who was terrible with animals and worse with people. He was a big animal vet in a small animal surgery.
Now that he has retired they are all great.
All animals are capable of aggression in the right circumstances - including humans.
But this guy sounds like a moron. Maybe he should try this technique with a 'nice' pussy cat and see if he still has all his fingers.
Dogs are pack animals and if they are in the right position in the pack they tend to be submissive. But this guy was a relative stranger and your dog could have acted aggressively. Makes you wonder if he actually went to Vet school!
Can't you change vet surgeries?
Now that he has retired they are all great.
All animals are capable of aggression in the right circumstances - including humans.
But this guy sounds like a moron. Maybe he should try this technique with a 'nice' pussy cat and see if he still has all his fingers.
Dogs are pack animals and if they are in the right position in the pack they tend to be submissive. But this guy was a relative stranger and your dog could have acted aggressively. Makes you wonder if he actually went to Vet school!
Can't you change vet surgeries?
wolf63, I know! At least dogs tend to give a warning! I am told that some cats aren't so patient.
Given that Jack's not keen on men anyway, and the vet knows this, he behaved a little irrationally! If Jack had gone on to bite, I would be really concerned, and I wouldn't be making excuses. The vet's behaviour just surprised me a bit-even the vet nurse said he wasn't aggressive (although she does have a soft spot for him!)
I'd like to change: initially when we moved, as I said, we were on PDSA, and they were the only local PDSA practice. Now, I only remain with them because they do the petcare plan that lets me spread out the cost of jabs etc. Accessibility is another issue: I can walk to that vet in minutes, and there isn't another for quite a distance (we don't drive, so...)
Looked into it last time, and think I will definitely look into it again!
x
Given that Jack's not keen on men anyway, and the vet knows this, he behaved a little irrationally! If Jack had gone on to bite, I would be really concerned, and I wouldn't be making excuses. The vet's behaviour just surprised me a bit-even the vet nurse said he wasn't aggressive (although she does have a soft spot for him!)
I'd like to change: initially when we moved, as I said, we were on PDSA, and they were the only local PDSA practice. Now, I only remain with them because they do the petcare plan that lets me spread out the cost of jabs etc. Accessibility is another issue: I can walk to that vet in minutes, and there isn't another for quite a distance (we don't drive, so...)
Looked into it last time, and think I will definitely look into it again!
x
Change your vet and tell the new ones why.
As for the 'pet plan' - i don't vaccinate adult dogs unless there is a known problem in the area such as parvo, I buy my wormers off the internet and only worm once a year unless there are signs or I know they have either had fleas or been eating rabbits. I think I know fairly well if my dog is in need of a vets attention and take them if they need it.
I don't think my yearly vets bill per dog would work out at anything like �120 per year! why not put that money in the bank each month especially if you have insurance anyway.
As for the 'pet plan' - i don't vaccinate adult dogs unless there is a known problem in the area such as parvo, I buy my wormers off the internet and only worm once a year unless there are signs or I know they have either had fleas or been eating rabbits. I think I know fairly well if my dog is in need of a vets attention and take them if they need it.
I don't think my yearly vets bill per dog would work out at anything like �120 per year! why not put that money in the bank each month especially if you have insurance anyway.
Surely behaviour is a matter of opinion no matter who is giving it. To me it doesn't sound particularly aggressive and it sounds like the sort of thing I would expect a "good" dog to do when a person is asserting their authority.
I think home collies can be quite aggressive anyway and have always much preferred the worked ones but your dog sounds normal.
I would have though goading any dog into a n aggressive situation, just to see doesn't sound like a normal vet thing to do. I am of the firm opinion tha t a dog should be treated like a dog and not like a person and as long as he listens to you and does as he is told then I dont see a problem.
I think home collies can be quite aggressive anyway and have always much preferred the worked ones but your dog sounds normal.
I would have though goading any dog into a n aggressive situation, just to see doesn't sound like a normal vet thing to do. I am of the firm opinion tha t a dog should be treated like a dog and not like a person and as long as he listens to you and does as he is told then I dont see a problem.
lankeela, I appreciate your suggestions: I only "do" the petplan because I wouldn't trust myself to save the money (we don't currently earn a lot, so if we had an unexpected cashflow problem, I would probably dip into the money to cover that. However I will definitely look up flea and worm treatment online, just to compare prices.
Are you suggesting I cut down to worming him every 6 months instead maybe? How often do you all worm your dogs? Am I being a bit fanatical?!
Goodsoulette-hear hear! Ideally, of course, he would be working, but as he is a pet I feel he has adapted well to home life. He is a little nervy, but I don't know many "pet" Collies who aren't. He always listens to commands, isn't pushy, lets me and my partner touch/check/groom him, and is, to me, a good dog. He is my first dog, and it's nice to speak to other owners, around me and on here, as I probably worry too much!
Thanks to you all so far for your advice and reassurance.
x
Are you suggesting I cut down to worming him every 6 months instead maybe? How often do you all worm your dogs? Am I being a bit fanatical?!
Goodsoulette-hear hear! Ideally, of course, he would be working, but as he is a pet I feel he has adapted well to home life. He is a little nervy, but I don't know many "pet" Collies who aren't. He always listens to commands, isn't pushy, lets me and my partner touch/check/groom him, and is, to me, a good dog. He is my first dog, and it's nice to speak to other owners, around me and on here, as I probably worry too much!
Thanks to you all so far for your advice and reassurance.
x
Goodsoulette, he did actually "demonstrate" how Jack reacted to being handled by him so I could see how he behaved! Abd then said that he shouldn't do that, but he wanted to show me. The more I reflect on it, the more concerned I am becoming! Jack could have really flew at him...Then it would have been a wholly different story.
Just off to phone around all other local vets!
I miss our vets where we used to live, they were so much better! x
Just off to phone around all other local vets!
I miss our vets where we used to live, they were so much better! x
Goodsoulette, I don't blame you-some dogs are so badly-handled and badly cared-for that they just have no idea how to behave around humans and other dogs.
I was a bit wary of dogs (I was snapped at by my gran's elderly dog when I was little), but we got Jack and he's totally changed my mind! I am very interested in dogs now, but still plenty to learn :)
Jack is lovely, and I would never knowingly put him in a situation that would cause him stress or anxiety. Of course he will react badly if he is cornered or scared, I don't think that's a dog-specific trait!
Well, there's 2 other vets round here...So I hope at least one of them is any good!
x
I was a bit wary of dogs (I was snapped at by my gran's elderly dog when I was little), but we got Jack and he's totally changed my mind! I am very interested in dogs now, but still plenty to learn :)
Jack is lovely, and I would never knowingly put him in a situation that would cause him stress or anxiety. Of course he will react badly if he is cornered or scared, I don't think that's a dog-specific trait!
Well, there's 2 other vets round here...So I hope at least one of them is any good!
x
The vet I used last time (the one that tried to look at his mouth!) tried to get me to pay 10 pounds a month (wonder if we are in the same area).
My dog is 11 years old and has seen the vet maybe 6 times in his life (usually when he needed steroids or antibiotics). I have not vaccinated him since his first vaccine, he gets treated for fleas when I see he has one or two and I have wormed him twice (when he was a pup). The worming bit may be a bit extreme but I know exactly what he eats etc. and I give garlic in his food (which is supposed to deter/get rid of worms). I live in a small town and walk him around lots of other dogs so his immunity is pretty strong.
One thing I never forget is that I am paying the vet! Yes I value his opinion BUT that is what I am paying for - his opinion. Ultimately I am in charge and (the same as any dog trainer that I go to) if I do not like the way they act (eg the way they handle/behave towards the dog) then I leave. I try not to let them take the dog off me 'to show me' anything and if a vet wants to give him an injection or anything I demand to know what it is BEFORE it is given and why it is being given.
The site I gave above also has a forum that is based around dog training/behaviour, there are lots of people who are experienced trainers/behaviourists and they have a variety of breeds of dog.
http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/forum/index.php
My dog is 11 years old and has seen the vet maybe 6 times in his life (usually when he needed steroids or antibiotics). I have not vaccinated him since his first vaccine, he gets treated for fleas when I see he has one or two and I have wormed him twice (when he was a pup). The worming bit may be a bit extreme but I know exactly what he eats etc. and I give garlic in his food (which is supposed to deter/get rid of worms). I live in a small town and walk him around lots of other dogs so his immunity is pretty strong.
One thing I never forget is that I am paying the vet! Yes I value his opinion BUT that is what I am paying for - his opinion. Ultimately I am in charge and (the same as any dog trainer that I go to) if I do not like the way they act (eg the way they handle/behave towards the dog) then I leave. I try not to let them take the dog off me 'to show me' anything and if a vet wants to give him an injection or anything I demand to know what it is BEFORE it is given and why it is being given.
The site I gave above also has a forum that is based around dog training/behaviour, there are lots of people who are experienced trainers/behaviourists and they have a variety of breeds of dog.
http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/forum/index.php
Cheers, kita. I am a regular (silent!) visitor to the site you gave, I find it very useful.
I guess people all have different approaches to caring for their pet. From what you've all said in previous posts, your dogs are pretty happy and healthy, and very loved!
It's easy to take a "professional's" word as law, but I have heard of some absolute horror stories regarding vets. I would just like to be somewhere I am comfortable, and most of all, Jack is comfortable.
Don't think we live in the same area, kita, but sounds like your ex-vet is a right royal rip-off too!
x
I guess people all have different approaches to caring for their pet. From what you've all said in previous posts, your dogs are pretty happy and healthy, and very loved!
It's easy to take a "professional's" word as law, but I have heard of some absolute horror stories regarding vets. I would just like to be somewhere I am comfortable, and most of all, Jack is comfortable.
Don't think we live in the same area, kita, but sounds like your ex-vet is a right royal rip-off too!
x
Once the puppies are six months old, I only worm them if I see evidence of worms, or if they have had a flea infestation. Certianly would not do it more than every six months. You can actually take a sample and get it tested to see if they need worming, although the cost would probably be more than the wormers. I use Panacur liquid for bitches in whelp and puppies, and Drontal tablets for adult dogs. This is because the Panacur can be given to bitches in whelp right up until 2 days after they give birth, so you effectively worm the puppies inside the mother.
However, as its a liquid its more messy to give to adult dogs and the Drontal is much easier.
However, as its a liquid its more messy to give to adult dogs and the Drontal is much easier.
What a load of rubbish, please find a different vet and preferably one that understands canine behaviour, of course a dog that rolls on it's back is submitting totally, it is exposing it's soft under belly to 'the aggressor' ie. in this case your vet!, I wouldn't trust this vet with any of my dogs, please for your dogs sake find another vet.
Illyria, thank you! I think that everyone who responded to my question is in agreement then.
I am going to visit the other 2 local vets today. I chatted to my mate last night, who was also thoroughly appalled! *lol*
So that's the end of them. It makes me so mad that people like this, who claim to be professionals, can force their opinion as fact onto others who may not be as critical. Think of the worry I would have had if I Believed my dog to be aggressive...
x
I am going to visit the other 2 local vets today. I chatted to my mate last night, who was also thoroughly appalled! *lol*
So that's the end of them. It makes me so mad that people like this, who claim to be professionals, can force their opinion as fact onto others who may not be as critical. Think of the worry I would have had if I Believed my dog to be aggressive...
x
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