The Floodgates Are Beginning To Creak

[New Judge]

"We want same pay award as drivers, says RMT boss Mick Lynch"

Looks like another cracking deal for passengers and taxpayers might be in the offing.

Meanwhile, all is not so hunky-dory as we may have been led to believe at the "Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen" (note for younger readers: locomotive "firemen" are people who used to shovel coal into the fireboxes of steam locomotives' - a practice which went out of regular use on the country's railways 56 years ago). They are to strike every weekend for ten weeks:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj9le7vdw91o

A statement from ASLEF reads:

"This follows a breakdown in industrial relations, bullying by management, and persistent breaking of agreements by the company."

I have a close friend who is a driver manager at LNER. I may reveal some of the issues which consitute  "bullying" according to the  Firemen's union.

[ynnafymmi]

I thought you might have some sympathy with Mick Lynch,NJ,he was a bigger Brexiteer than you or Farage or the SNP voters was.🙁

[New Judge]

Lots of people with whom I disagree on other issues voted to Leave, ynnafymmi. He said he voted o leave because he did not believe that the EU should act as a single sovereign country.  He encouraged his members to do likewise for several reasons including protection of workers’ rights and because he believed his aim of seeing the railways renationalised was not possible within the EU.

I have a suspicion that it is the last of these that was uppermost in his mind when he placed his cross.

[ToraToraTora]

yep it's the Labour time machine, back to the 70s we go.....

[Khandro]

Are they worthy of their hire ? I think not.  Anyone could learn to drive a modern train in short order

[THECORBYLOON]

KHANDRO, how long is the training for a train driver?

[Khandro]

Too long 

[tomus42]

This kind of thing never happened under the Tories.

The floodgates were rock solid.

[New Judge]

"Anyone could learn to drive a modern train in short order"

You could learn to drive a train (i.e. how to make it start and stop) in about 15 minutes.

However, that is not quite all there is to it:

https://www.railstaff.co.uk/2016/02/19/what-it-takes-to-be-a-train-driver/

"Typically it takes between nine and 12 months to become a qualified train driver. Having completed a medical examination, trainees are required to demonstrate an understanding of the rules and regulations, mechanical knowledge, route knowledge and 200 to 300 driving hours, initially this may also include some work on simulators. Trainees also need to complete a Personal Track Safety (PTS) certificate."

Every class of traction and every route requires individual training. Drivers must "sign for" the routes they drive over. They must know the route intimately, know the location of every speed restriction, station, gradient and other significant feaures which require adjustments to their driving. They are regularly tested on their route knowledge and if they fail those tests their route certificate is withdrawn until they can demonstrate their competence.  

Driving a train is easy. Driving one safely is not.

[Khandro]

NJ; In times of crisis eg, war, (do you know such times?) it's surprising how quickly ordinary people can learn skills. I suggest I could drive a modern train, given good instruction, safely within a week.

But then, I'm not an idiot, and I have a licence to drive most road vehicles, (not tanks) and I don't rely on Google for my expertise as much you seem to.  

[tomus42]

//I suggest I could drive a modern train, given good instruction, safely within a week.

But then, I'm not an idiot//

I disagree with everything you've said there.

[THECORBYLOON]

KHANDRO, are there any organizations offering one-week courses for would-be train-drivers?

[tomus42]

If there aren't, khandro could start one.

[tomus42]

He's got a licence to drive all road vehicles (except tanks), and he's not an idiot, so that's all the boxes ticked re train driving.

[Khandro]

Train divers have played on a self invented mystique, connecting them to the days of steam engines where the driver had to deal with steam, coal, fire & water out on the footplate in all weathers. For the modern train driver it's a simpler operation - a bus driver works in a much more demanding, minute by minute, environment.

I have travelled on trains which have no driver at all, in fact there's been one in London for many years.

[New Judge]

"I have travelled on trains which have no driver at all, in fact there's been one in London for many years."

I think we did the issue of driverless trains on another thread and it was explained why none (as far as I know) are operated on the National Network. 

"For the modern train driver it's a simpler operation..."

Physically making the train start and stop is relatively simple - indeed far simpler than starting and stopping a steam locomotive - and as I said, can be taught relatively quickly. That said, getting a train to stop at a precise platform end or signal from 125mph in varying weather and track conditions takes some learning. But it's other driving aspects I mentioned  which take the time to learn.

I was privileged a few years ago to (courtesy of my LNER driver manager pal) to experience a cab ride from London to York. This was in a class 91 electric locomotive with a trailing load of about 400 tons. These beasts boast 6,500hp and have a design speed of 140mph. and one of them holds the UK speed record for electric locomotives when it attained 162mph. However, they are limited to 125mph. One of the reasons for this is that during tests conducted by British Rail in 1988 it was  established that drivers could not interpret and act upon line-side signals with sufficient consistency and accuracy when driving in excess of that speed.

Much of the driver’s attention during my trip was keeping the train within the speed limit. Much of southern end of the East Coast main is subject to limits lower than 125mph and it required considerable concentration to keep the train in check.

The driver joined LNER from another operator and already knew how to drive trains. However, it was more than six months before he was passed competent to drive the line and was restricted to driving between London and Newcastle (and the LNER branches to places such as Leeds and Bradford). He was not passed to drive north of Newcastle as he did not know the route.

My experience illustrated the skill and concentration required to drive a train at speed. It is not easy.

“I suggest I could drive a modern train, given good instruction, safely within a week.”

I’m afraid that statement shows quite clearly that you have absolutely no idea about driving trains.

[THECORBYLOON]

KHANDRO, have you found any one-week training courses then?

[mushroom25]

// I have travelled on trains which have no driver at all, in fact there's been one in London for many years. //

both central and victoria lines are operated automatically, the person at the front opens and shuts the doors, and initiates the start. except that is on a sunday. the train cabs are fully equipped and driven manually on Sundays as a matter of routine, to ensure the drivers are not subject to knowledge fade. when the automatic computer says "no" (as it frequently does), the drivers take over and keep the trains moving.

Docklands operates similarly - the "train captain" operates the doors, but also drives the train when the system stops working.

[Khandro]

https://ibb.co/DQNLBrW

and,

https://ibb.co/t37F7XH

[davebro3]

I suspect most of the "stuff" in a plane's cockpit is useful only for routine inspection & maintenance. A lot (most) of the flying is done on autopilot.