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Homosexuality and your faith.
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I'm interested to get your views on homosexuality and how these views tie in with your faith or spiritual life. I know that this has been a very difficult and controversial issue in the Church, and I myself have found it hard to form an opinion about it.
I think what scripture tells us on the subject is very subjective, and can be interpreted in any number of ways. I do consider homosexuality very unnatural and do find it difficult to fit the idea of homosexuality into my understanding of God's creation. On the ther hand I believe that people are born gay and probably always have been.
I know some Christians who literally have more sympathy for murders or rapists than they do towards homosexuals, I have also heard Christians say that God does not embrace gays. These type of attitudes make me cringe because I believe that God embraces everyone and if homosexuality is a sin then surely it can only be put into the same type of category as adultery or sex before marriage. There is also the argument that Jesus did not mention homosexuality amongst his many teachings and that if it had been such a serious issue why did he not mention it?
Anyway these are my random thoughts, what are your opinions?
I think what scripture tells us on the subject is very subjective, and can be interpreted in any number of ways. I do consider homosexuality very unnatural and do find it difficult to fit the idea of homosexuality into my understanding of God's creation. On the ther hand I believe that people are born gay and probably always have been.
I know some Christians who literally have more sympathy for murders or rapists than they do towards homosexuals, I have also heard Christians say that God does not embrace gays. These type of attitudes make me cringe because I believe that God embraces everyone and if homosexuality is a sin then surely it can only be put into the same type of category as adultery or sex before marriage. There is also the argument that Jesus did not mention homosexuality amongst his many teachings and that if it had been such a serious issue why did he not mention it?
Anyway these are my random thoughts, what are your opinions?
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The Bible teaches us that God loves sinners, but hates their sin, yours and mine.
Sin entered into the world and corrupted the whole of creation, and, homosexuality, along with all other sexual sin, is an expression of that corruption.
Whether we like it or not, the scriptures are unequivocal about homosexuality, saying it is wrong, that it is sin.
But, Christians should surely follow Christs example and love the sinner, always caring about their welfare, doing good to them and for them, literally being a servant to all?
So, while I detest homosexuality, I do not hate homosexuals, and desire their salvation, just as I desire the salvation of any other sinner like me, who has fell far short of Gods perfect standard of righteousness.
God DOES embrace gays, just as He embraces thieves, adulterers, murderers, and .... me.
Treating homosexuals any different from how I would like to be treated myself, has no place in Christianity.
Sin entered into the world and corrupted the whole of creation, and, homosexuality, along with all other sexual sin, is an expression of that corruption.
Whether we like it or not, the scriptures are unequivocal about homosexuality, saying it is wrong, that it is sin.
But, Christians should surely follow Christs example and love the sinner, always caring about their welfare, doing good to them and for them, literally being a servant to all?
So, while I detest homosexuality, I do not hate homosexuals, and desire their salvation, just as I desire the salvation of any other sinner like me, who has fell far short of Gods perfect standard of righteousness.
God DOES embrace gays, just as He embraces thieves, adulterers, murderers, and .... me.
Treating homosexuals any different from how I would like to be treated myself, has no place in Christianity.
Fingerprint, even though we have clashed before on A.B. I have to say that I find your openness regarding this issue refreshingly honest. Most christians that I've known would not say that you were born that way, rather that it was a choice (which it certainley is not).
The arguement goes that a rectum is not meant to accomodate a penis. So, following on from this premise oral sex (within a marrage) is also wrong, as a mouth is meant for eating food with.Breasts are meant to feed babies with so fondling them is also wrong.Contraception must also be wrong as it interfers with the natural cycle of things.
The point that I'm trying to make is that human sexuality is extremly varied and to victimise homosexuals because of their way of sharing their (human) sexuality is (to me)hypocritical.
The arguement goes that a rectum is not meant to accomodate a penis. So, following on from this premise oral sex (within a marrage) is also wrong, as a mouth is meant for eating food with.Breasts are meant to feed babies with so fondling them is also wrong.Contraception must also be wrong as it interfers with the natural cycle of things.
The point that I'm trying to make is that human sexuality is extremly varied and to victimise homosexuals because of their way of sharing their (human) sexuality is (to me)hypocritical.
In a similar vein, I am not married (yet) to my girlfriend so in the eyes of most christian churches we are "living in sin."
And yet we have christian aquantinces who tolerate this (just.) and yet, as Fingerprint says, they have more sympathy with jailed murderers than homosexuals.
What I dont understand (and I genuinely dont) is what is the big issue about sex? If two people, who love each other, want to enjoy their sex life and give each other pleasure, then what is the big deal about HOW they do it, as long as no one is hurt?
Next to food and drink the urge to have sexual intimacy is probably man's biggest need.Why deny this to homosexuals?
And yet we have christian aquantinces who tolerate this (just.) and yet, as Fingerprint says, they have more sympathy with jailed murderers than homosexuals.
What I dont understand (and I genuinely dont) is what is the big issue about sex? If two people, who love each other, want to enjoy their sex life and give each other pleasure, then what is the big deal about HOW they do it, as long as no one is hurt?
Next to food and drink the urge to have sexual intimacy is probably man's biggest need.Why deny this to homosexuals?
The Highway Code tells you to drive in a certain way at a certain speed, regardless of what your own personal opinion is regarding driving conditions. To drive how you like, when you like, is against the law, no matter how much you may disagree with it. It remains the law, not open to subjective interpretation.
It is the same with the Bible, for those who subscribe to its teachings.
We cannot pick and choose which bits to obey, and which to ignore.
Of course, if a person doesn't subscribe to its teachings anyway, then it's not a problem for that person, is it?
It is the same with the Bible, for those who subscribe to its teachings.
We cannot pick and choose which bits to obey, and which to ignore.
Of course, if a person doesn't subscribe to its teachings anyway, then it's not a problem for that person, is it?
OK Theland, I see where you'r coming from (even if I dont believe it). So, where in your "highway code" does it lay out the rules for oral sex? Where does it lay out the rules for contraception? Where does it say that breasts are for feeding babies with and not for fondling?
Actualy, where DOES it prescribe the techniques for sexual intercourse?
Is it ok to have it doggy style? 69ers? spoons? missionary position?
Seriously Theland, the bible is NOT a highway code to sexual behaviour.
Actualy, where DOES it prescribe the techniques for sexual intercourse?
Is it ok to have it doggy style? 69ers? spoons? missionary position?
Seriously Theland, the bible is NOT a highway code to sexual behaviour.
Theland - thanks for your answer, I do think that your interpretation of what scripure says on the issue is a fair one, but by no means the only credible one. You have to take into consideration the time and the context these passages were written in.
The authors did not understand the concept of human sexuality which was only developed in the late 19th century, and therefore had no understanding of a commited same sex relationship. They were writing from the perspective that everyone being hetrosexual, some of whom slept with other hetrosexuals. English Bibles contain numerous passages condeming same-sex activities. But just study the original Hebrew or Greek texts, the passages are either ambiguous or unrelated to consentual homosexuality within a committed relationship.
Two words are often mistranlated; "qadesh" meaning a male temple prostitute who engaged in ritual sex; it is often mistranslated as �sodomite� or �homosexual.� and "to�ebah" means a condemned foreign Pagan religious cult practice is often translated as �abomination.�
The authors did not understand the concept of human sexuality which was only developed in the late 19th century, and therefore had no understanding of a commited same sex relationship. They were writing from the perspective that everyone being hetrosexual, some of whom slept with other hetrosexuals. English Bibles contain numerous passages condeming same-sex activities. But just study the original Hebrew or Greek texts, the passages are either ambiguous or unrelated to consentual homosexuality within a committed relationship.
Two words are often mistranlated; "qadesh" meaning a male temple prostitute who engaged in ritual sex; it is often mistranslated as �sodomite� or �homosexual.� and "to�ebah" means a condemned foreign Pagan religious cult practice is often translated as �abomination.�
Many of the Biblical references to Homosexuality are actully referring to male rape, which was then a common way to humiliate or dominate others. This clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality in the context that we are discussing it today and that is why I feel that what scripture tells us is very subjective.It's reasonable to assume many loving gay and lesbian relationships existed in Biblical times, but thay would have been conducted in secret.
As you know I am a Catholic and my Church's position is very similar to what you have said - God loves everyone and hate the sin, love the sinner. I just feel that this fails to engage the issue, how can homosexuals feel that they have any place in the Church when we are telling them that the very nature of what they are is sinful? I don't think that I would feel comfortable or welcome in a group that believed having brown hair was sinful.
As you know I am a Catholic and my Church's position is very similar to what you have said - God loves everyone and hate the sin, love the sinner. I just feel that this fails to engage the issue, how can homosexuals feel that they have any place in the Church when we are telling them that the very nature of what they are is sinful? I don't think that I would feel comfortable or welcome in a group that believed having brown hair was sinful.
Wizard - Thanks - I'm glad we share some common ground, maybe we can form a gay rights protest group together.
I do believe that people are born gay. Some people struggle for years before "coming out" and telling their friends and families that they are gay. Homosexuals spend their lives facing prejudice and hatred, in some countries people are inprisoned or even murdered for being gay, and I have yet to meet a straight person who wants to be gay, so in short I cannot believe anyone would choose to face all of this if they had a choice not to be gay.
I do believe that people are born gay. Some people struggle for years before "coming out" and telling their friends and families that they are gay. Homosexuals spend their lives facing prejudice and hatred, in some countries people are inprisoned or even murdered for being gay, and I have yet to meet a straight person who wants to be gay, so in short I cannot believe anyone would choose to face all of this if they had a choice not to be gay.
The biblical admonition against homosexual activity comes from Leviticus which consists of a very long list of detailed rules by which a Jew of those times was supposed to conduct his life. Why on earth Christians in the 21st Century feel obliged to live by those rules is beyond me.
But, you see, they don�t! Can all Christian homophobes swear that they have never eaten a prawn cocktail, moules mariniere, a ham sarnie or a pork chop � shellfish and pork meat being just two of the foods banned by Leviticus? If they are parents did they sacrifice a kid or a lamb on the birth of each of their children and did the mother observe the correct number of days of uncleanness afterwards? And since Leviticus (20.13) says �If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death�� do they think that practising gays should be executed? Somehow I doubt it. So the fact that these people are happy to discard the majority of the teachings of Leviticus yet hang on grimly to the bit about homosexuality makes me wonder whether they are just seeking scriptural justification for their rather nasty prejudices.
And what sort of a �God� is it who gives most of us heterosexual desires which we are allowed to assuage, but creates others with homosexual desires which they are forbidden to assuage? What is he � a practical joker? A sadist? Not very nice to know, I reckon, which is why I�m glad I don�t believe in him.
But, you see, they don�t! Can all Christian homophobes swear that they have never eaten a prawn cocktail, moules mariniere, a ham sarnie or a pork chop � shellfish and pork meat being just two of the foods banned by Leviticus? If they are parents did they sacrifice a kid or a lamb on the birth of each of their children and did the mother observe the correct number of days of uncleanness afterwards? And since Leviticus (20.13) says �If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death�� do they think that practising gays should be executed? Somehow I doubt it. So the fact that these people are happy to discard the majority of the teachings of Leviticus yet hang on grimly to the bit about homosexuality makes me wonder whether they are just seeking scriptural justification for their rather nasty prejudices.
And what sort of a �God� is it who gives most of us heterosexual desires which we are allowed to assuage, but creates others with homosexual desires which they are forbidden to assuage? What is he � a practical joker? A sadist? Not very nice to know, I reckon, which is why I�m glad I don�t believe in him.
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You say that you acknowledge people are born gay, yet you consider that state unnatural - surely you're confused then
Also, allowing that the majority of people in the world are not followers of your bible, why should the writings it holds have any sway in the world?
Also, (this links back to an earleir question I posted) where in the gospel does Jesus condemn homosexuality? NOTE: I'm not in any way interested in the teachings of his followers, as I don't consider their views any more relevant than any other persons, so please don't refer to them if you're answering this question.
Also, allowing that the majority of people in the world are not followers of your bible, why should the writings it holds have any sway in the world?
Also, (this links back to an earleir question I posted) where in the gospel does Jesus condemn homosexuality? NOTE: I'm not in any way interested in the teachings of his followers, as I don't consider their views any more relevant than any other persons, so please don't refer to them if you're answering this question.
Fingerprint, you say you can't believe that anyone would choose to face the prejudice that gays encounter, so why do you think so many of them flaunt their sexuality so shamelessly? You only have to look at gay rights marches to see men dressed in the most scanty of clothes, often behaving provocatively and fawning openly over their partners - or, it seems, anyone who will welcome their attentions. Many gay people live their lives quietly and in their own way without offending anyone - indeed, often other people are totally unaware that they are gay - and why should they be? However, some men I've known have abandoned all vestige of self-respect the moment they've 'come out', and have changed practically overnight into mincing, camp, effeminate exhibitionists - or into macho men in leather and chains, apparently devoid of any remaining trace of common decency.
If they're so concerned about the prejudice they face, why do you think they encourage it by behaving so outrageously - and how do they ever hope to gain respect?
Me? Although I've never felt the need to flaunt it, I'm happy to be hetero - and in this mad politically correct world I hope that won't be seen as a prejudicial statement against gays.
If they're so concerned about the prejudice they face, why do you think they encourage it by behaving so outrageously - and how do they ever hope to gain respect?
Me? Although I've never felt the need to flaunt it, I'm happy to be hetero - and in this mad politically correct world I hope that won't be seen as a prejudicial statement against gays.
Fingerprint - having re-read your question I think some of my replies were aimed at points listed by other contributors...
There is one other oint you made that I have to disagree with though. You state that you feel homosexuality, if a sin, is comparable to sex before marriage or adultery. I would agree that unmarried sex - with either gender - is comparable, (disagree in the concept of sin though...) but since Pauline Church-led society makes it impossible for gays to marry, what choice can they have but unmarried relationships?
There is one other oint you made that I have to disagree with though. You state that you feel homosexuality, if a sin, is comparable to sex before marriage or adultery. I would agree that unmarried sex - with either gender - is comparable, (disagree in the concept of sin though...) but since Pauline Church-led society makes it impossible for gays to marry, what choice can they have but unmarried relationships?
fingerprint, sorry - like wickerman, I failed to answer your question, but I agree with him. I don't believe in the concept of sin either, but I do know Christians who believe that being gay is a worse sin than being a paedophile, and where they get their rationality from is beyond me. I've no objection to people loving each other - but I just wish gays would keep it private like the rest of us.
Whickerman - thanks for your posts, I did say in the question that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality and I was just putting this forward as one of my thoughts on the issue.
I know that me believing people are born gay and yet still considering it unnatural is a contradiction, this is part of the reason I raised the subject, because I have found it a difficult and complex issue, that I have struggled to form an overall opinion on. When I made the point about homosexuality being comparable to sex before marriage or adultery, I was not really being specific about these "sins" or the nature of sin, but rather trying to make the point that from a Christian point of view homosexuality should not be viewed as seriously as say murder or rape.
Naomi - Hi thanks for your posts. I can also think of many heterosexual people who shamelesley flaunt their sexuality. I think the way you flaunt your sexuality is probably more down to how extroverted your personalty is rather than your sexual orientation. With homosexuals there is probably also the added dimension that they have had to suppress who they are or have been discriminated against for who they are, so therefopre they relish the opportunity to flaunt their sexuality in defiance.
I know that me believing people are born gay and yet still considering it unnatural is a contradiction, this is part of the reason I raised the subject, because I have found it a difficult and complex issue, that I have struggled to form an overall opinion on. When I made the point about homosexuality being comparable to sex before marriage or adultery, I was not really being specific about these "sins" or the nature of sin, but rather trying to make the point that from a Christian point of view homosexuality should not be viewed as seriously as say murder or rape.
Naomi - Hi thanks for your posts. I can also think of many heterosexual people who shamelesley flaunt their sexuality. I think the way you flaunt your sexuality is probably more down to how extroverted your personalty is rather than your sexual orientation. With homosexuals there is probably also the added dimension that they have had to suppress who they are or have been discriminated against for who they are, so therefopre they relish the opportunity to flaunt their sexuality in defiance.
I have to say that I also find it distasteful to see homosexuals flaunting their sexuality, in fact, literally stuffing it down our throats at times.
There is no need for that.
Everybody should be welcomed into any institution, whether it is a church, a social club, a place of work, a pub, or antwhere else where people gather.
I am not in the habit of being intrioduced to people, by saying, that I am heterosexual, and asking them if they are homosexual. The conversation would more likely be me asking them if they have travelled far, did they come by car, or are they new to this venue. Sexuality doesn't come into it.
Yes we are all sinners, but I don't ask people when was the last time they stole something, or told a lie, or committed a selfish act. I know, that like me, nobody is perfect, so why would I want to focus on just one aspect of their persona?
There is no need for that.
Everybody should be welcomed into any institution, whether it is a church, a social club, a place of work, a pub, or antwhere else where people gather.
I am not in the habit of being intrioduced to people, by saying, that I am heterosexual, and asking them if they are homosexual. The conversation would more likely be me asking them if they have travelled far, did they come by car, or are they new to this venue. Sexuality doesn't come into it.
Yes we are all sinners, but I don't ask people when was the last time they stole something, or told a lie, or committed a selfish act. I know, that like me, nobody is perfect, so why would I want to focus on just one aspect of their persona?
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