I have tried to DMOR...

[flashpig]

... but failed.

Sorry to need to ask this question. This isn't me cheating to answer a question, I've just been taught it and taught it but cannot understand it.

Okay, in a sentence with a ditransitive verb, are both the direct and indirect object patients, or is it just the direct object?

If the indirect object is moved to the front of the sentence, it becomes the subject, right(?), but what becomes of the agent if it is included in the sentence (eg. 'Grammar gave Flashpig a headache' 'Flashpig was given a headache by grammar')? Does it become an indirect object? Does it become just an adverbial and not really important to classify as subject or object, agent or patient?

This is confusing as anything. Grammar is a stinker. A headache was given by grammar to Flashpig.

[slowdown]

"The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?" - Chuang Tzu

[flashpig]

"The answerbank exists because of the answers. Once I've gotten the answers, I can forget the answerbank." - Flashpig

[Hgrove]

Flashpig, I have never heard of an agent or patient; can you tell me what they are?  As far as I know, when you say "Grammar gave Flashpig a headache", Grammar: subject, gave: verb, Flashpig: indirect object, a headache: direct object.  Grammer would take the nominative in latin; Flashpig would take the dative; a headache would take the accusative.  A headache was given by grammar to Flashpig:  A headache: subject (takes nominative in latin). Gave: verb.  By grammar:  indirect object (I think it would translate into latin with ex + ablative). To Flashpig: Indirect object (would take dative in latin).  Is this what you wanted to know?

[Hgrove]

Rereading your question, a subject remains a subject, and an object remains an object, wherever you put them in a sentence.  Unless, of course, you want to say the opposite.  Flashpig loves the Answerbank.  The Answerbank loves Flashpig.  In latin you could never get confused:  Flashpigus amat Answerbancam and Answerbancam amat Flashpigus both mean exactly the same thing (look at the word endings).  The following mean the same as each other, but the opposite of the previous example:  Answerbanca amat Flashpigum.  Flashpigum amat Answerbanca.   I hope it is helpful rather than confusing...

[Hgrove]

p.s. of course I made up Flashpigus and Answerbanca...

[Peter Pedant]

I agree wiz polymath Hgrove

Flashpig = porcus illuminatus

Porcus is late latin,suis is classical butI cant remember the declinsion.

by flash pig wouldbe a porco illuminato

a + ablative of agent

sorry to be picky

 

flashpig is right headache remains accusative (direct object) after transformation

Is flash pig's difficulty not standard grammar, but that transformational grammar,once you have got your head around it, doesnt seem to do anything?

[Hgrove]

Peter Pedant, would it not be third declension:  Singular: Nom. Sus, Acc. Sum, Voc.: Sus, Gen.: Suis, Dat: Sui, Abl: Su.  Plural: Nom. Sues, Acc.: Sues, Voc; Sues. Gen: Suum. Dat: Suibus Abl: Suibus.  It does not sound like fourth declension to me. And if the above is rubbish - I have had fun writing it. 

[Peter Pedant]

Sus is 3rd declension,

Sus suem suis sui sue, Sues suum, suibus suibus, but Lucretius uses subus -

root of our word swine and sow

What is DMOR by the way?

[davver]

"If the indirect object is moved to the front of the sentence, it becomes the subject, right(?)"

Only if the verb was changed into the passive.

e.g. 'Grammar gives Flashpig a headache' or, to put it more completely, 'Grammar gives a headache to Flashpig'

Moving the ind. obj. (Flashpig) to the front could be done in two ways:

1. Flashpig is given a headache by grammar.

2. To Flashpig, grammar gives a headache.

In (1), Flashpig becomes the subject and the verb is in the passive. In (2), the verb remains active so you have to take the preposition as well, because 'Flashpig' is still the indirect object.

Clear as mud.

[davver]

And yes indeedy, just what are 'DMOR', 'agents' and 'patients'?

Out of interest, what country are they taught in? I've never heard of them in England.

[ursula62]

That's because there are very few schools that teach English grammar these days.  I supsect it's only the private schools that have proper grammar lessons.

When I was at school in the 70s, I was taught grammar at private school, but  I moved to a comprehensive for the last year of my O levels. Nobody in the class had ever had English grammar lessons.

Their "grammar" lessons consisted of comprehension tests and reading an American teen novel called "Fifteen". This was 5th year secondary school, the year of the O Level exam.

When I asked the teacher if we were going to study grammar, she said "what for?".

[Peter Pedant]

Salve Porce illuinate,

You are all too young to know the joys of First Steps in Eating by F Ritchie Benaud. This was a refined instrument of torture along with Kennedy's Revised Eating Primer

Generations of bored skool-boys changed LATIN into EATING, by adding two cross bars and a G.

"Section 208: Racilius primum me sententiam rogavit

(Racilius asked my my opinion first) (Cicero)

Note 1 in the passive, the accusative of the Thing is occasionally kept

Primus a Racilio sententiam rogatus sum

(I was the first to be asked my opinion by Racilius)"

This kinda answers your question

Flashpig was given a headache by grammar

Flashpig - subject (nominative)

headache (object - or accusative of the Thing)

by grammar (indirect object, in Latin an ablative of agent without a preposition)

simple

well I've no headache Flash pig,

and I have YOU to thank for driving me back to read Kennedy with much greater concentration.