Update on Electric shock collar question

[lankeela]

Electric Shock Collar Early Day Motion
11-Jan-07

In addition to her Private Member's Bill, Sarah McCarthy-Fry MP (Portsmouth North) has tabled the following Early Day Motion calling for the Government to introduce a complete ban on the sale, manufacture, hire, loan, importation or use of electric training devices.

Early Day Motion 592

"That this House condemns the sale, manufacture, hire, loan, importation or use of electric training devices to train and control dogs with the exception of electric fences which operate on a different principle; considers the use of such devices to be cruel and unnecessary; understands that alternative positive training methods produce dogs which are trained more quickly and reliably with no potential for abuse or cruelty; recognises that because dogs are highly reactive to learning experiences and have a strong bond with humans that their natural instincts can be utilised to train them easily; and calls upon the Government to introduce a complete ban on the sale, manufacture, hire, loan, importation or use of electric training devices."

Please contact your MP and ask him/her to pledge support to the Kennel Club's shock collar campaign by signing EDM 592.

If you wish to find out further information regarding electric shock collars, please visit the campaigns section of the Kennel Club website at www.thekennelclub.org.uk

[Annlinda]

Just hoping the ban becomes law.

[Bigeye74]

The problem is not with the collar its with the user. I have seen many a dog owner smack or shake their pet because they didn't come immediately and their dog 'should have known better'. The same can (and does) apply to shocking collars. I live near many roads and sheep farmers with guns, no amount of 'love' in my dogs training is going to overcome her natural instincts, yet an electric shock will break her concentration on her intended prey and make her come back to me. Before you make further comments educate yourself by viewing the websites that sell these devices and see how they should be used or implemented.

[lankeela]

No thanks I know all I need to know about them thank you.

[Bigeye74]

That means you've made a really balanced decision on the matter and listened to the side of the debate that makes you feel good. Thought like that has caused thousands of foxes to be culled inhumanely i.e. shot and poisoned along with several thousand hounds put to sleep. Another 'animal lovers' law, get in.

[lankeela]

Actually I am pro hunting with dogs. I have supported hunts for many years, I have coursed my greyhounds and I have have opposed the ban on hunting with dogs - despite this I believe anti hunting with dogs campaigners have a right to have their say and to their opinions.

I don't see what this has to do with the use of cruel training methods.

I also don't see why you would be letting your dog off the lead near roads or near livestock, even if you had complete control of them.

[Bigeye74]

Because my only other choice is an area surrounded by roads with a lot of children playing. While my dog isn't a problem with children, parents get worried when they see 40 kgs of dog running towards their loved ones. Furthermore, I would need to travel 20 miles to avoid farmers fields. I stress again that there is no cruelty is using an electric dog collar in the correct way. The damage is done by people mis-using them. I am sure, though cannot substantiate the fact, that more dogs have been hurt by owners beating them for peeing on the carpet etc.
What in your mind is better, a dog that has the freedom to run and be stopped before being shot on crushed or one that gets 'walked' on a lead at its owners pace?
Unless I am running in an unknown area or farmers fields I no longer need the collar. My dog has a better life than one whose exercise is on the end of a lead.

[kita1]

A farmer has the right to shoot any dog worrying sheep. It does not matter whether the dog 'stopped' or is in the process of being recalled. You could actually have the dog back on a lead, the farmer still has the right to shoot it.

Dogs should NEVER be exercised in fields containing sheep or other livestock.

I know of a Siberian Husky that was being walked on a local right of way over common land containing sheep, the man was jogging with the dog off lead. The dog went just out of sight round a corner, the farmer shot the dog, dog returned to owner bleeding, he rushed it to the vets. Dog died. Farmer was never prosecuted.

If you take your dog round farmers land then you risk your dog being shot.

[Bigeye74]

Your geographical location more or less dictates where you can walk your dog. I have a choice estate interleaved with roads or farmers fields. The dog is a hound (sight) and likes to run. Using an electric collar means that she can run freely and I still have control. She is happy and I am not nervous about taking her out. In 'my' case I cannot see a disadvantage here.

[lankeela]

That is your choice but to have these things freely available for the average punter to get hold of does not bear thinking about.

[lankeela]

I also live on an estate, but drive my dogs a few miles to a disused airfield where they can safely run free together without causing any upset or annoyance to anyone. It is surrounded by agricultural land and it is used by several dog owners. However if I see any other dog walkers my dogs go on the lead or back to the van as I can never be sure that other people have control of their dogs. If this was not available I would go further afield until I found somewhere safe to let them off.

[Bigeye74]

You must have more time on your hands than me and live in a more convenient location. When it comes to other dogs, I have the advantage that she has been socialized from a young age and she can look after herself. I can't think of a better example but cars kill and injure hundreds of people every week but we don't ban them. I'm trying to illustrate that a blanket ban on something that is very effective but harmful in the wrong hands is pointless. I will say that for the majority of dogs these collars are overkill and simply buying and carefully reading a book would solve any problems. Why not call for strict licensing of the product? Those pro collars would be less eager to call you 'do gooders' and the house of commons might pay some real attention.

[lankeela]

I make time for my dogs, even if it means taking them before I go to work or after dark.

Sorry if it would inconvenience you, but I still believe that they should not be used and a total ban is what most reasonable people are calling for.

Even if licensed they could get into the hands of inexperienced or uncaring people, and even if one dog suffered from incorrect use, then that would be one dog too many for me.

[Bigeye74]

So, how would you police your ban? Dangerous dogs have been banned and how many are still on the streets. What about those people who make a living selling the units and those that use them to train gundogs?
I walk or run at least 5 miles a day and cannot afford any more time on average than that takes.
A ban is what is unreasonable and any rational person can see that.
The intended bill has already gained opposition in the House of Lords and I can't see it getting through there.
Furthermore a ban would trainers back to using violent methods to dominate alpha males and bring them under control. To avoid this perhaps we should ban all large male dogs and let security guards carry guns.
Perhaps we should ban the army from having guard and war dogs as we won't be able to control them.
If you are serious about a ban (a full ban worked with blood sports too didn't it), why not be reasonable and take a staged approach instead of an all out ban. Look at smoking, not happening in public places and the age of buying them has gone up and every smoker in the land was initially against it.

[lankeela]

Sorry, but this sort of logic is beyond reasonable discussion.

[Bigeye74]

I'm not trying to be logical. I'm being reasonable. I accept that dogs can and do get harmed by these collars but there are 2 sides to every story and you are completely blinkered to one of them! Good luck with your lost cause.....