A Sinister Development . . . . .

[Canary42]

. . . . but just another example of the advance of Fascism in this country I suppose. A woman will be forced into hospital to give birth in spite of suffering from severe agoraphobia. How inhumane.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57108649

[Jackdaw33]

There will be sound medical reasons for such a decision.

[Milvus]

The unborn baby has no support other than the mother who for her own reasons wants to reject the advice of care professionals. The baby needs the best chance as it is very unlikely to be agoraphobic and given the opportunity, would to want be given usual medical support. I would also be interested as to why you think this is facist. I can find little difference in the outcomes of Marxist or Fascist revolutions

[Stickybottle]

I always thought agoraphobia was a fear of open spaces?
If she suffered from claustrophobia I could understand
One might consider it in humane that a person with said condition ought to have thought long and hard about becoming pregnant in the first place because the circumstances do not bode well for raising a child normally
Who knows?

[Stickybottle]

From Google

Agoraphobia is a fear of being in situations where escape might be difficult or that help wouldn't be available if things go wrong. Many people assume agoraphobia is simply a fear of open spaces, but it's actually a more complex condition.

That is me told I guess

[pixie374]

It is cruel, ignorant and unreasonable. No other women are forced to give birth in hospital, and with no medical reason given either... it is inhumane. Her choice, her risks. Agoraphobia is a mental condition, but does not prove mental incapacity.

[bluemoon1]

How can you link this with facism, do you think she would have had a better life in Cambodia under communist Pol Pot?

[pixie374]

That isn't the comparison he made, Bluemoon. While it's lovely that so many male posters don't give a monkeys about a pregnant woman's welfare.... and, by default, the baby. It should be obvious that millions of pregnant women choose to at least start at home, with the hope they will give birth at home.
This lady, no doubt at a great concession, has agreed to go to hospital, if needed. Just like the majority of others in the same position. No difference, at least in the link, from anyone else.

[LadyCG]

If I had gone with a home birth my son wouldn't be here now.

It's not just about the mother, there's the baby's welfare to think of too. As the mother is incapable of putting her child's needs first, the court has intervened.

I see no facism.

[bobbinwales]

So whose the fascists canary. The judge, the nhs or the goverment? Tricky case yes and I have some sympathy for her tho the child matters to but it went through a legal process rather than an edict from fascist's.

[bobbinwales]

Makes a change from blaming brexit tho

[barry1010]

According to the report this woman has a fear of leaving home and has even had her scans done at home.

She does not have the mental capacity to make such a big decision; her partner and mother think she should have the baby in hospital.

She has complications that could be 'catastrophic' during the birth.

The judge would not have come to this decision lightly and as is always the case the baby's best interest is the priority.

I can't help but wonder what sort of life this baby will have.

[calmck]

I have seen things go horribly wrong during a hospital birth. We do not know if the woman has an underling physical or medical decision that would make a home birth a risk to her or the baby. Can you imagine the outcry that would follow if mum or baby died or baby was injured during birth. Think of the mental and emotional effect on those delivering the baby should something go wrong. We also don't know how long it would take do get the mother to hospital should an emergency arrive. Do you want an ambulance or air ambulance on standby at the door or how about a c section on the kitchen table

[Stickybottle]

I can't help but wonder what sort of life this baby will have.

Exactly the point I made earlier barry, we have the same concerns

[barry1010]

Calmk, according to the reports the mother to be has 'complications' that could be 'catastrophic' to the birth. The fact that she doesn't have mental capacity to make her own decisions indicates that there are other conditions apart from her fear of leaving her home.
The Court of Protection will have far more details about the mother than have been reported.

This poor woman has hardly left her home since she was 17. What sort of life has she had and has she had any treatment for her agoraphobia?

[anneasquith]

I’d say this situation is far more complicated than what is in the press. The mums welfare and the child’s will be paramount for everyone involved . Best wishes to them all . No one has the right to speculate on the future life of this baby without knowing ALL the circumstances .

[woofgang]

pixie, other women who are adjudged to lack capacity to make such a decision DO have medical decisions made for them including where they give birth.
Think of this a bit differently....We don't know what the lady wants to do or what she thinks about the safety of home birth...I think we can assume that, even if the pregnancy is an accident, she wants a safe birth and a healthy baby...maybe she hoped that by the time she was due to be delivered, she would have overcome her agoraphobia. Of course we know nothing about her medical history and neither should we.
so here's the scenario......she wants, is really desperate, to choose to be able to go to hospital, either for a planned delivery or if its needed but she just CANNOT do it, her illness won't let her. Maybe she even knows that whatever she says now, when the time comes she will refuse to leave her house, even fight physically to stay there. her care team know all this but they also know that at the point where she needs to leave the house, they cannot do anything against her will without legal support for their actions and she knows this too. So what this ruling has said is that if she needs support, even insistent support with restraint to leave her house then specially trained carers are allowed to give it. It also allows for her to be taken into hospital before the actual birth so that hopefully she can settle and feel safer in her surroundings before labour begins.

having dealt ( a little) with people with very strong and distressing phobias, I honestly don't think this is evidence of male fascism. medical fascism or anything else...it does however lift a corner of the covering over the medical needs of folk we don't often hear about.

To finally add some context, as people may know, I am a retired Occupational Therapist. Our whole professional ethos is around facilitating and supporting patient choice often in the face of disapproval from relatives and other medical professionals. I don't and never have advocated setting aside patient choice and agency lightly.

[drmorgans]

True but it sounds like the woman's partner and mother both support the hospital. The judge is in a difficult position, balancing the mother's mental health issues with the possible dangers to both mother and baby during the birth.

[Ken4155]

Wonder what the 'proportionate force' entails?

[pastafreak]

I find the judge's apparent statement "that due to her agoraphobia she does not have the mental capacity..." somewhat ignorant, and insulting . Yes, based on her fears she might make different decisions than what others think appropriate, but this has nothing to do with mental capacity.
Mention was also made of the need to avoid possible catastrophe...but no mention of actual problems that could contribute to that. Can we then assume that the mother is of normal health? So is the issue that she is bring prevented from having the kind of birth *she* wants?
As for the kind of life her child will have...that baby may actually be the stimulus and focus that will help her overcome...somewhat at least...what can be such a limiting condition.
I know...from my own experience.

[ummmm]

I was going to say the same, Pasta, the baby might help her enormously.

As for the birth - so easy to say 'I want a home birth' until you're in that pain and start begging for drugs.