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Heaven & Hell
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I asked this previously on the Body & Soul topic, but it would be interesting to ask it again here, as I presume there's more interest in such matters:-
Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?
Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?
Answers
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For starters, something to think about, did the universe just happen or is there an intelligent designer at work, ie God?
All of our experiences are based on cause and effect, but without an intelligent designer, we have no cause for the effect which is the universe.
Yes my Heaven & Hell question is down the road from this point, but an important point nonetheless.
All of our experiences are based on cause and effect, but without an intelligent designer, we have no cause for the effect which is the universe.
Yes my Heaven & Hell question is down the road from this point, but an important point nonetheless.
Also, intelligent scientists have tried and failed in their laboratories to reproduce life from dead elements, and failed, in their quest to "prove" that life did NOT need an intelligent designer!
What about the claim for the "Big Bang?"
First there was nothing - No material, energy, space or time, and then suddenly, boom, and here we are. Without a belief in intelligent design, how can this be?
What about the claim for the "Big Bang?"
First there was nothing - No material, energy, space or time, and then suddenly, boom, and here we are. Without a belief in intelligent design, how can this be?
The Bible is intirguing. Unlike other so called holy books, it is full of prophecies that have been verifiably fulfilled, and this process still goes on today.
So, if the Bible is accurate in what it has to say concerning prophecies, why should I not believe it when it tells me about God and His creation?
So, if the Bible is accurate in what it has to say concerning prophecies, why should I not believe it when it tells me about God and His creation?
As posted in the original thread;
To answer the OP... I am neither, because there is no heaven or hell.
After reading some of the threads, just a couple of points.
Theland mentions somewhere something like we all will be judged by God, and thats a fact. No its not... its your belief, your faith that tells you that, nothing more. Not only that, which God? Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Thor, Zeus?
Theland also mentions something about rejecting Evolution, and then derides the fossil record (amongst the plethora of evidence supporting Evolution), claiming that there are no transitional fossils.... nonsense, there is plenty of evidence showing transition, from fish to amphibian, from reptile to mammal etc. He then derides evolution by saying that because we havent seen macro evolution (speciation), only micro evolution (adaptation). This is plainly a nonsensical argument, because of the timescale required for speciation to be observed. Darwinism claims that many many steps of micro evolution leads eventually to macro evolution, and there are many many observable examples of micro evolution supporting the premise.
To believe in a deity requires that you require in the whole of the supporting documentation for that deity... that means if you claim to be a faithful christian, you believe in all of it, from genesis to adam and eve to noahs ark and all.... that means believing in the young earth theory, which has been comprehensively disproved.
To answer the OP... I am neither, because there is no heaven or hell.
After reading some of the threads, just a couple of points.
Theland mentions somewhere something like we all will be judged by God, and thats a fact. No its not... its your belief, your faith that tells you that, nothing more. Not only that, which God? Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Thor, Zeus?
Theland also mentions something about rejecting Evolution, and then derides the fossil record (amongst the plethora of evidence supporting Evolution), claiming that there are no transitional fossils.... nonsense, there is plenty of evidence showing transition, from fish to amphibian, from reptile to mammal etc. He then derides evolution by saying that because we havent seen macro evolution (speciation), only micro evolution (adaptation). This is plainly a nonsensical argument, because of the timescale required for speciation to be observed. Darwinism claims that many many steps of micro evolution leads eventually to macro evolution, and there are many many observable examples of micro evolution supporting the premise.
To believe in a deity requires that you require in the whole of the supporting documentation for that deity... that means if you claim to be a faithful christian, you believe in all of it, from genesis to adam and eve to noahs ark and all.... that means believing in the young earth theory, which has been comprehensively disproved.
Prophecies can be used to "prove" anything. If that is your "proof" then there is absolutely no point in debating with you. To paraphrase... " There are lies, damned lies..... and prophecies".
Whether a prophecy has come true or not is entirely down to who is doing the interpreting, and to what event the prophecy is being assigned. Using a prophecy as evidence of anything holds no scientific or logical merit whatsoever.
Whether a prophecy has come true or not is entirely down to who is doing the interpreting, and to what event the prophecy is being assigned. Using a prophecy as evidence of anything holds no scientific or logical merit whatsoever.
intelligent??? hardly!
as i have already said - where is the genius that creates barren wastelands and diseased lakes and rivers and expects people to live in it?
where is the genius that makes the plates under the sea shift about causing tidal waves that wipe out villages?
where is the genius that plants fossils and "fake" evidence of evolution just to throw us of the scent? - brilliant idea!
where is the genuis in ebola, cholera, plague etc etc - they serve no function except to kill - so why?
was god just a bit bored one day? or perhaps he was in a huff?
and like i have already stated, and you ignored the point by merely saying "wrong!" - nostradamus made many predictions that many feel came true, so predictions are hardly proof of anything.
you seem to lead your life adhering to outdated rules and regulations and a fear of 'stepping out of line' simply because you are **** scared of your beloved god - any one who has to command respect through terrifying people into it - has no real respect
far better to be respected and loved because people GENUINELY feel it, than merely because you demand it and threaten eternal hell if you don't get it!
if a human behaves the way god apparently does, he is an evil tyrant, a despot, a psychopath - think about it!
as i have already said - where is the genius that creates barren wastelands and diseased lakes and rivers and expects people to live in it?
where is the genius that makes the plates under the sea shift about causing tidal waves that wipe out villages?
where is the genius that plants fossils and "fake" evidence of evolution just to throw us of the scent? - brilliant idea!
where is the genuis in ebola, cholera, plague etc etc - they serve no function except to kill - so why?
was god just a bit bored one day? or perhaps he was in a huff?
and like i have already stated, and you ignored the point by merely saying "wrong!" - nostradamus made many predictions that many feel came true, so predictions are hardly proof of anything.
you seem to lead your life adhering to outdated rules and regulations and a fear of 'stepping out of line' simply because you are **** scared of your beloved god - any one who has to command respect through terrifying people into it - has no real respect
far better to be respected and loved because people GENUINELY feel it, than merely because you demand it and threaten eternal hell if you don't get it!
if a human behaves the way god apparently does, he is an evil tyrant, a despot, a psychopath - think about it!
Joko - I'm thinking, I assure you.
Thanks for the time and effort you spend replying.
Every single one of your points are entirely valid and I'll try to give you a coherent answer.
The "bad" things you mention, (plagues, shifting plates causing earthquakes etc) are explained by the fact that the whole of creation is corrupted. I'm sure you;ll agree that we observe this daily on the news.
The Bible says it wasn't always like this, but that this corruption entered creation with the fall of Man.
Fossils are dated from the layers of rock in which they are found, and layers of rock are dated according to what fossils are found in them. Which is a bit convoluted?
Regarding your so called evidence for evolution, I'm not denying it exists, it's just that I haven't found any yet. From finding some old bone, the scientists seem to have the great ability to build up a picture of what the original animal was like, where it lived, how it lived, and so on and so forth.
Alas, I fear that evolution is a faith, just as I have a faith.
I can't give you the proof of God that would satisfy you, but I can offer some proofs.
Israels formation in 1948 and its present predicament is entirely consistent with Bible prophecies. From what little I know of Nostradamus, his prophecies were only as accurate as the daily astrologers forecast in the newspapers, open to wild interpretation.
Don't forget, that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and doesn't interfere in the free choices made by Man. His perfect justice will bring consequences for those who break His laws. But He is a God of forgiveness, and anybody accepting His gift of forgivenenss will escape the just punishment.
Evolutionists don't seem to have much of a problem taking us from the primordial soup to Homo Sapien, but even then, they neatly step over the fact that given our
Thanks for the time and effort you spend replying.
Every single one of your points are entirely valid and I'll try to give you a coherent answer.
The "bad" things you mention, (plagues, shifting plates causing earthquakes etc) are explained by the fact that the whole of creation is corrupted. I'm sure you;ll agree that we observe this daily on the news.
The Bible says it wasn't always like this, but that this corruption entered creation with the fall of Man.
Fossils are dated from the layers of rock in which they are found, and layers of rock are dated according to what fossils are found in them. Which is a bit convoluted?
Regarding your so called evidence for evolution, I'm not denying it exists, it's just that I haven't found any yet. From finding some old bone, the scientists seem to have the great ability to build up a picture of what the original animal was like, where it lived, how it lived, and so on and so forth.
Alas, I fear that evolution is a faith, just as I have a faith.
I can't give you the proof of God that would satisfy you, but I can offer some proofs.
Israels formation in 1948 and its present predicament is entirely consistent with Bible prophecies. From what little I know of Nostradamus, his prophecies were only as accurate as the daily astrologers forecast in the newspapers, open to wild interpretation.
Don't forget, that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and doesn't interfere in the free choices made by Man. His perfect justice will bring consequences for those who break His laws. But He is a God of forgiveness, and anybody accepting His gift of forgivenenss will escape the just punishment.
Evolutionists don't seem to have much of a problem taking us from the primordial soup to Homo Sapien, but even then, they neatly step over the fact that given our
Joko - I'm thinking, I assure you.
Thanks for the time and effort you spend replying.
Every single one of your points are entirely valid and I'll try to give you a coherent answer.
The "bad" things you mention, (plagues, shifting plates causing earthquakes etc) are explained by the fact that the whole of creation is corrupted. I'm sure you;ll agree that we observe this daily on the news.
The Bible says it wasn't always like this, but that this corruption entered creation with the fall of Man.
Fossils are dated from the layers of rock in which they are found, and layers of rock are dated according to what fossils are found in them. Which is a bit convoluted?
Regarding your so called evidence for evolution, I'm not denying it exists, it's just that I haven't found any yet. From finding some old bone, the scientists seem to have the great ability to build up a picture of what the original animal was like, where it lived, how it lived, and so on and so forth.
Alas, I fear that evolution is a faith, just as I have a faith.
I can't give you the proof of God that would satisfy you, but I can offer some proofs.
Israels formation in 1948 and its present predicament is entirely consistent with Bible prophecies. From what little I know of Nostradamus, his prophecies were only as accurate as the daily astrologers forecast in the newspapers, open to wild interpretation.
Don't forget, that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and doesn't interfere in the free choices made by Man. His perfect justice will bring consequences for those who break His laws. But He is a God of forgiveness, and anybody accepting His gift of forgivenenss will escape the just punishment.
Evolutionists don't seem to have much of a problem taking us from the primordial soup to Homo Sapien, but even then, they neatly step over the fact that given our
Thanks for the time and effort you spend replying.
Every single one of your points are entirely valid and I'll try to give you a coherent answer.
The "bad" things you mention, (plagues, shifting plates causing earthquakes etc) are explained by the fact that the whole of creation is corrupted. I'm sure you;ll agree that we observe this daily on the news.
The Bible says it wasn't always like this, but that this corruption entered creation with the fall of Man.
Fossils are dated from the layers of rock in which they are found, and layers of rock are dated according to what fossils are found in them. Which is a bit convoluted?
Regarding your so called evidence for evolution, I'm not denying it exists, it's just that I haven't found any yet. From finding some old bone, the scientists seem to have the great ability to build up a picture of what the original animal was like, where it lived, how it lived, and so on and so forth.
Alas, I fear that evolution is a faith, just as I have a faith.
I can't give you the proof of God that would satisfy you, but I can offer some proofs.
Israels formation in 1948 and its present predicament is entirely consistent with Bible prophecies. From what little I know of Nostradamus, his prophecies were only as accurate as the daily astrologers forecast in the newspapers, open to wild interpretation.
Don't forget, that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and doesn't interfere in the free choices made by Man. His perfect justice will bring consequences for those who break His laws. But He is a God of forgiveness, and anybody accepting His gift of forgivenenss will escape the just punishment.
Evolutionists don't seem to have much of a problem taking us from the primordial soup to Homo Sapien, but even then, they neatly step over the fact that given our
Joko - I'm thinking, I assure you.
Thanks for the time and effort you spend replying.
Every single one of your points are entirely valid and I'll try to give you a coherent answer.
The "bad" things you mention, (plagues, shifting plates causing earthquakes etc) are explained by the fact that the whole of creation is corrupted. I'm sure you;ll agree that we observe this daily on the news.
The Bible says it wasn't always like this, but that this corruption entered creation with the fall of Man.
Fossils are dated from the layers of rock in which they are found, and layers of rock are dated according to what fossils are found in them. Which is a bit convoluted?
Regarding your so called evidence for evolution, I'm not denying it exists, it's just that I haven't found any yet. From finding some old bone, the scientists seem to have the great ability to build up a picture of what the original animal was like, where it lived, how it lived, and so on and so forth.
Alas, I fear that evolution is a faith, just as I have a faith.
I can't give you the proof of God that would satisfy you, but I can offer some proofs.
Israels formation in 1948 and its present predicament is entirely consistent with Bible prophecies. From what little I know of Nostradamus, his prophecies were only as accurate as the daily astrologers forecast in the newspapers, open to wild interpretation.
Don't forget, that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and doesn't interfere in the free choices made by Man. His perfect justice will bring consequences for those who break His laws. But He is a God of forgiveness, and anybody accepting His gift of forgivenenss will escape the just punishment.
Evolutionists don't seem to have much of a problem taking us from the primordial soup to Homo Sapien, but even then, they neatly step over the fact that given our
Thanks for the time and effort you spend replying.
Every single one of your points are entirely valid and I'll try to give you a coherent answer.
The "bad" things you mention, (plagues, shifting plates causing earthquakes etc) are explained by the fact that the whole of creation is corrupted. I'm sure you;ll agree that we observe this daily on the news.
The Bible says it wasn't always like this, but that this corruption entered creation with the fall of Man.
Fossils are dated from the layers of rock in which they are found, and layers of rock are dated according to what fossils are found in them. Which is a bit convoluted?
Regarding your so called evidence for evolution, I'm not denying it exists, it's just that I haven't found any yet. From finding some old bone, the scientists seem to have the great ability to build up a picture of what the original animal was like, where it lived, how it lived, and so on and so forth.
Alas, I fear that evolution is a faith, just as I have a faith.
I can't give you the proof of God that would satisfy you, but I can offer some proofs.
Israels formation in 1948 and its present predicament is entirely consistent with Bible prophecies. From what little I know of Nostradamus, his prophecies were only as accurate as the daily astrologers forecast in the newspapers, open to wild interpretation.
Don't forget, that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and doesn't interfere in the free choices made by Man. His perfect justice will bring consequences for those who break His laws. But He is a God of forgiveness, and anybody accepting His gift of forgivenenss will escape the just punishment.
Evolutionists don't seem to have much of a problem taking us from the primordial soup to Homo Sapien, but even then, they neatly step over the fact that given our
Theland.You think that putting people in an ETERNAL torture chamber for FINITE wrong doings is just? That is one sick doctrine.And you say that we have free will? Its like me telling my partner how much I love her (faults and all) but if she ever walks away from me then I'm gonna come after her and after I'v beaten her black and blue I'm gonna roast her in the oven (for ever).Sick man
If I offend an infinite God, I can expect an infinite punishment.
But I'm not making this up. I'm simply relating to you what is written in the Bible.
It's not inevitable, as God offers forgiveness.
All of the great churches and cathedrals throughout the world were built by people who believed this, in societies that believed this.
It's only in these latter days that the likes of the Church of England have been preaching a gospel of "Everyones' a winner," with no mention of punishment to satisfy Gods perfect justice.
But I'm not making this up. I'm simply relating to you what is written in the Bible.
It's not inevitable, as God offers forgiveness.
All of the great churches and cathedrals throughout the world were built by people who believed this, in societies that believed this.
It's only in these latter days that the likes of the Church of England have been preaching a gospel of "Everyones' a winner," with no mention of punishment to satisfy Gods perfect justice.
I could not care less if my dead and rotting corpse ended up in �Heaven� or �Hell� as I will be dead before this does not happen. Without a living functioning body or brain, I will not be able to experience the pain of fire or the supposed eternal bliss of unearned rewards.
Belief in the afterlife is nothing less than a refusal to acknowledge the inescapable responsibility one has for achieving happiness the only way and in the only place this is possible, by earning it here on Earth.
Herein lies the problem with accepting extraordinary claims without the requisite extraordinary proof. Belief in the availability of rewards or the threat of punishment beyond the grave distract from the need to devote ones mental and physical resources to the task at hand, making life here on Earth not just tolerable but an experience worth living through. As creatures possessing the capacity to develop and expand intelligence and choose wisely from among the options this presents, opting out on this opportunity leaves one worthy of nothing but the waste of a meaningless life. I can not for the life of me imagine a worse possible hell than the self-imposed eternal damnation of death without ever experiencing the joy of having made the most of my moment in the Sun.
Belief in the afterlife is nothing less than a refusal to acknowledge the inescapable responsibility one has for achieving happiness the only way and in the only place this is possible, by earning it here on Earth.
Herein lies the problem with accepting extraordinary claims without the requisite extraordinary proof. Belief in the availability of rewards or the threat of punishment beyond the grave distract from the need to devote ones mental and physical resources to the task at hand, making life here on Earth not just tolerable but an experience worth living through. As creatures possessing the capacity to develop and expand intelligence and choose wisely from among the options this presents, opting out on this opportunity leaves one worthy of nothing but the waste of a meaningless life. I can not for the life of me imagine a worse possible hell than the self-imposed eternal damnation of death without ever experiencing the joy of having made the most of my moment in the Sun.
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