Spectator - Christmas Crossword -...
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Corporal Punishment In Schools
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Since corporal punishment in schools was outlawed, it seems to me that the authorised violence of the cane, has been replaced by the unauthorised violence on a grand scale, of bullying, and as teachers and politicians wring their hands in desperation looking for a solution, the victims continue to suffer.
Should the cane be brought back, regardless of E.U. laws?
Should the cane be brought back, regardless of E.U. laws?
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You can�t sack your boss if they are the bully. Yes you can leave, but then you are still a victim and they haven�t been punished have they. You are confusing the issue over child victims of violence � would not a child getting a beating from their teacher also be a victim or are you saying that two wrongs DO make a right?
Again, how would you feel if one of your own cherubs was whipped in class by their teacher for misbehaviour? Perhaps a solution would be to bring in the parents for a horse-whipping? I imagine you would probably just sue the teacher and school and take your children to Disney World with the proceeds.
I grow weary of your argument now. You should look at the last 8,000 year of British History to find some time of non-violent peace. Perhaps when Joseph of Arimathea came to Glastonbury in 63, although that was preceded by the Iceni defeat and followed by the complete Roman takeover of Britain and Wales. Violent times indeed.
Again, how would you feel if one of your own cherubs was whipped in class by their teacher for misbehaviour? Perhaps a solution would be to bring in the parents for a horse-whipping? I imagine you would probably just sue the teacher and school and take your children to Disney World with the proceeds.
I grow weary of your argument now. You should look at the last 8,000 year of British History to find some time of non-violent peace. Perhaps when Joseph of Arimathea came to Glastonbury in 63, although that was preceded by the Iceni defeat and followed by the complete Roman takeover of Britain and Wales. Violent times indeed.
NO,NO and NO again.
How dare anyone set themselves up as judge and jury over a child then inflict physical harm on them.
It's sick, it doesn't work, it perverts the true nature of what an adult should be to a child (mentor, teacher, parent, nurturer, protector) and ideas like this always go hand in hand with a religious fundamental viewpoint.
You beat one Devil out, Theland, and another twenty in, if you hit a child.
If adults do their jobs properly to start with then children shouldn't need the cane should they? If adults can be bothered to take their responsibilities seriously and treat every child like a precious gift and encourage and nurture that gift then the child will not be the bullying nightmare you describe. My children would not dream of bullying other children, because they have been taught good values. It's not hard. Anyone can do it.
If a child's parents don't teach it good values, with your methods you punish the child for it's parent's, possibly it's teachers, shortcomings by hitting it.
How the hell do you ever expect that to make anything better? How do you expect that to work?
You won't cure bullying like this, you'll make it worse.
How dare anyone set themselves up as judge and jury over a child then inflict physical harm on them.
It's sick, it doesn't work, it perverts the true nature of what an adult should be to a child (mentor, teacher, parent, nurturer, protector) and ideas like this always go hand in hand with a religious fundamental viewpoint.
You beat one Devil out, Theland, and another twenty in, if you hit a child.
If adults do their jobs properly to start with then children shouldn't need the cane should they? If adults can be bothered to take their responsibilities seriously and treat every child like a precious gift and encourage and nurture that gift then the child will not be the bullying nightmare you describe. My children would not dream of bullying other children, because they have been taught good values. It's not hard. Anyone can do it.
If a child's parents don't teach it good values, with your methods you punish the child for it's parent's, possibly it's teachers, shortcomings by hitting it.
How the hell do you ever expect that to make anything better? How do you expect that to work?
You won't cure bullying like this, you'll make it worse.
Noxlumos - I was hoping you would look in on this, as I have tremendous respect for your well thought out comments.
My point is this. For whatever reason, some kids go into school literally frightened, and spend their time surviving the ordeal instead of learning.
To complain to the school is often to invite platitudes, and empty reassurances about school policy, buddy sysems, pastoral care, and so on.
The evidence for success or failure, is to see if the bullying stops. It may in isolated cases, but generally, no.
The media nowadays often refer to this or that , "tough school in a tough area." In other words, the kids have to learn to be tough to survive.
So, given the absence of corporal punishment, how do we make THEIR kids stop inflicting violence on OUR kids?
My point is this. For whatever reason, some kids go into school literally frightened, and spend their time surviving the ordeal instead of learning.
To complain to the school is often to invite platitudes, and empty reassurances about school policy, buddy sysems, pastoral care, and so on.
The evidence for success or failure, is to see if the bullying stops. It may in isolated cases, but generally, no.
The media nowadays often refer to this or that , "tough school in a tough area." In other words, the kids have to learn to be tough to survive.
So, given the absence of corporal punishment, how do we make THEIR kids stop inflicting violence on OUR kids?
I had the cane at school for a misdemeanour that is nothing compared to what some kids get up today. As to the caning it taught me a valuable lesson regarding breaking rules, being caught and subsequently punished, but it also created a very bolshie attitude from me to those in authority and that took a few years to get out of. Extra homework and being grounded by my parents would have had more of a result.
Zimzam - I also was caned in school, and slippered, and hit in the guts with a beseball bat. So yes, I know about some of the bullying teachers who seemed to like inflicting pain.
So, you can appreciate that I am not in favour of seeing children subjected to violence. I didn't like it myself!
The crux of the matter is, which is the lesser of all of the evils? Which is going to be effectual?
Is there a place for strictly regulated corporal punishment? Nox makes good points in his post, but what will work? At present we just seem to live in hope that the bully will go away ... and the older criminal for that matter.
So, you can appreciate that I am not in favour of seeing children subjected to violence. I didn't like it myself!
The crux of the matter is, which is the lesser of all of the evils? Which is going to be effectual?
Is there a place for strictly regulated corporal punishment? Nox makes good points in his post, but what will work? At present we just seem to live in hope that the bully will go away ... and the older criminal for that matter.
People who bully, are invariably bullied themselves ( at some stage in their life).
You cannot say
"oh here is a child who is clearly at an already huge disadvantage because his parent's are absolute t0ssers, who recieves nothing in the form of the love and nurturing that any child needs, so he comes to school and vents his very real anger, hurt and fury on people weaker than he, because that's what he's learned from his dysfunctional parents. I know what I'll do with that child! Because I am bigger than he is, and he is weaker than me, everytime I see him doing something I don't like, I'll hit him with a big stick!"
Can you not see, that that just re-inforces the already negative message that the child has imprinted on him which has caused him to bully in the first place?
You are bullying the child, in the hope of it stopping the child bullying other people?
Come on Theland, you are anything but stupid, you have to know that will never work.
As with everything I think you won't stop most negative behaviour we see until we educate our children as a society to have better values.
Value money less, objects less, people more, kind acts more in school and you will go a long way to correcting everything anyway. Kids are taught to be like this, not just from their dysfunctional parents who crave the latest CHAV accessory, but from their teachers who don't care how nice a child is, they want good SATS results for their league tables, from their peers who think everyone should look like a model and from society generally who is only interested in attractive, have it all, winners.
We all have to up our game as human beings, belting a little kid whose already in need of desperate help really won't solve it.
You cannot say
"oh here is a child who is clearly at an already huge disadvantage because his parent's are absolute t0ssers, who recieves nothing in the form of the love and nurturing that any child needs, so he comes to school and vents his very real anger, hurt and fury on people weaker than he, because that's what he's learned from his dysfunctional parents. I know what I'll do with that child! Because I am bigger than he is, and he is weaker than me, everytime I see him doing something I don't like, I'll hit him with a big stick!"
Can you not see, that that just re-inforces the already negative message that the child has imprinted on him which has caused him to bully in the first place?
You are bullying the child, in the hope of it stopping the child bullying other people?
Come on Theland, you are anything but stupid, you have to know that will never work.
As with everything I think you won't stop most negative behaviour we see until we educate our children as a society to have better values.
Value money less, objects less, people more, kind acts more in school and you will go a long way to correcting everything anyway. Kids are taught to be like this, not just from their dysfunctional parents who crave the latest CHAV accessory, but from their teachers who don't care how nice a child is, they want good SATS results for their league tables, from their peers who think everyone should look like a model and from society generally who is only interested in attractive, have it all, winners.
We all have to up our game as human beings, belting a little kid whose already in need of desperate help really won't solve it.
I remember sitting on the floor next to the head's desk waiting to be caned when I was in primary school - for something I didn't even do mind. I was so shy as a child it was unreal and the thought of having this punishment shook me up pretty bad. Thankfully the head gave me a good telling off and sent me on my way, He knew it wasn't me but had to give me a roasting just the same! - the waiting was more punishment than the pain would have been!!
I now work at that school and over the years have seen many forms of behaviour management strategies being put into practise, but there's a need for renewal, the children get used to the 'punishment' and it ends up like water off a ducks back.
I've found that with the older children in the school, the strategies used become a badge of honour - if you get put into Orange zone, you're 'Ace' (or whatever the cool word is!)
I don't believe in hitting children, there's little room for violence in society but there is a need for continued behaviour management skills/strategies. Some children know there's only so much you can do and will use that to their advantage, but it's only a very small percentage of children, most of them are still scared of a raised voice.
I now work at that school and over the years have seen many forms of behaviour management strategies being put into practise, but there's a need for renewal, the children get used to the 'punishment' and it ends up like water off a ducks back.
I've found that with the older children in the school, the strategies used become a badge of honour - if you get put into Orange zone, you're 'Ace' (or whatever the cool word is!)
I don't believe in hitting children, there's little room for violence in society but there is a need for continued behaviour management skills/strategies. Some children know there's only so much you can do and will use that to their advantage, but it's only a very small percentage of children, most of them are still scared of a raised voice.
My sixteen year old son recently came home from school covered in blood from a head wound, he'd been punched by an ex-pupil wearing a large ring. My son retaliated and gave the guy a good thrashing, to the extent that I and my son do not believe this low life will ever be a problem to my son again.
Nevertheless, the incident was witnessed, and the school reported it to the police.
I also reported it to the police, who were satisfied that my son was the innocent victim of an assault. However, the police refused to do anything further, not even call at the guys house, for fear of inflaming the situation. So, in this case, violence worked, and the police refused to work!
I know it's not right, but what if my son could not defend himself? Would the threat of a caning when he was in schhol have given the thug some fear of the law?
Nevertheless, the incident was witnessed, and the school reported it to the police.
I also reported it to the police, who were satisfied that my son was the innocent victim of an assault. However, the police refused to do anything further, not even call at the guys house, for fear of inflaming the situation. So, in this case, violence worked, and the police refused to work!
I know it's not right, but what if my son could not defend himself? Would the threat of a caning when he was in schhol have given the thug some fear of the law?
I was never disputing the need for punishment. I just disagree with the original question. Corporal punishment/the cane should not be bought back into schools.
Is it not the generation of children who grew up with the cane who decided to ban it and bring about the �soft� approach to punishment? And equally are these not the people who have children in school now who may be both bully and victim?
My ex-girlfriend was a teacher who was physically threatened by a pupil�s dad for giving their child a B- for some homework exercise. If they are to be lead by example - which is worse? The abusive and potentially violent parent, or the abusive and violent teacher who inflicts the cane?
Is it not the generation of children who grew up with the cane who decided to ban it and bring about the �soft� approach to punishment? And equally are these not the people who have children in school now who may be both bully and victim?
My ex-girlfriend was a teacher who was physically threatened by a pupil�s dad for giving their child a B- for some homework exercise. If they are to be lead by example - which is worse? The abusive and potentially violent parent, or the abusive and violent teacher who inflicts the cane?
During my school days I was hit with canes, rulers, stool-ball bats, rounders bats & board rubbers. I was also slapped, thumped in the middle of my back & had my & ears & hair pulled. The school was run with a climate of fear. The prefects were watching for any slight mis -demeanors in the corridors or playground. If you transgressed you put in front of the blackboard & beaten when the teacher came back from his lunch.BTW all of this happened before I reached the age of 12.
Bring back corporal punishment...NO NO NO.
Bring back corporal punishment...NO NO NO.
Nox gives excellent replies ALWAYS and I back his comments in this thread 100%.
Children are born into this world as wild animals, in fact. They have to be nurtured and trained into the right way to go about things. Invariably things fall by the wayside every now & again. To be given the gift of a 'perfect' child in this respect is rare ;o)
I agree bullies are usually the result of being brought up in sometimes violent homes. In some cases they are children who are completely ignored at home ~ no discipline, no love, no respect. How on earth do they learn to behave in a respectful manner if they haven't been shown...a beating? I don't think so.
My son (and ourselves) have had to deal with bullies every now & then. At first he retaliated with fighting (a natural reaction) but this meant HE got into trouble and not the bullies as my son is one of those unlucky types who gets caught! he saw the unjustice in this and took matters into his own hands. He became a bully. Of course when we found out about this we were mortified and only then were we informed about previous history from my son ~ this was backed up by his school. Should he have been caned, despite the injustice? he received anger management lessons at school, and we had excercises to do with him at home. He learned that the best option was always to go to his year head with any problems, and can put up with sneers of 'grass' and 'teachers pet' and carry his head high.
Cont.
Children are born into this world as wild animals, in fact. They have to be nurtured and trained into the right way to go about things. Invariably things fall by the wayside every now & again. To be given the gift of a 'perfect' child in this respect is rare ;o)
I agree bullies are usually the result of being brought up in sometimes violent homes. In some cases they are children who are completely ignored at home ~ no discipline, no love, no respect. How on earth do they learn to behave in a respectful manner if they haven't been shown...a beating? I don't think so.
My son (and ourselves) have had to deal with bullies every now & then. At first he retaliated with fighting (a natural reaction) but this meant HE got into trouble and not the bullies as my son is one of those unlucky types who gets caught! he saw the unjustice in this and took matters into his own hands. He became a bully. Of course when we found out about this we were mortified and only then were we informed about previous history from my son ~ this was backed up by his school. Should he have been caned, despite the injustice? he received anger management lessons at school, and we had excercises to do with him at home. He learned that the best option was always to go to his year head with any problems, and can put up with sneers of 'grass' and 'teachers pet' and carry his head high.
Cont.
Cont.
My daughter has also suffered at the hands of bullies in the past. She has aspergers syndrome so always managed to keep any problems to herself anyway ~ I couldn't see any signs of 'withdrawal' as that is the way she is anyway :o(
She coped with it far better than my son. She has always had the belief that 'what goes around comes around' and is successful at college, found her niche and a great circle of friends. The bullies are a bunch of layabouts with no prospects ~ a couple of them were expelled from school for various reasons.
My daughter has also suffered at the hands of bullies in the past. She has aspergers syndrome so always managed to keep any problems to herself anyway ~ I couldn't see any signs of 'withdrawal' as that is the way she is anyway :o(
She coped with it far better than my son. She has always had the belief that 'what goes around comes around' and is successful at college, found her niche and a great circle of friends. The bullies are a bunch of layabouts with no prospects ~ a couple of them were expelled from school for various reasons.
So how do you explain Tom Brown's schooldays?
Was that purtely a work of imagination? Was the bullying in that not rooted in any practical experience?
The idea that corporal punishment somehow reduced bullying is absolute nonesense.
How can you rely on "your experience" that we live in a more violent society?
My experience is that there are less cars about now
-Oh I grew up in London and now live in the country - you don't think that could be relevent do you?
Was that purtely a work of imagination? Was the bullying in that not rooted in any practical experience?
The idea that corporal punishment somehow reduced bullying is absolute nonesense.
How can you rely on "your experience" that we live in a more violent society?
My experience is that there are less cars about now
-Oh I grew up in London and now live in the country - you don't think that could be relevent do you?
I think basically the youngsters of today have no respect for anyone or anything. We all need to learn from our parents what is right and what is wrong and we also need to learn that if we choose to do something that is wrong, then there will be consequences that we will have to deal with.
All the time these days, we hear of youngsters who do something wrong, say at school and when their parents find out about it, they go to the school and lay into the teachers!! This teaches the child a valuable lesson - no matter what I do, my parents will back me up regardless.
No wonder they do as they like.
I think corporal punishment may be a useful tool to have as a last resort, but there are lots of other issues that need addressing before the child gets to that stage. Parenting classes maybe? Lots of todays parents are the result of bad parenting by their own parents and this then continues down through the generations.
Someone needs to stamp on the brake right now and stop this madness.
All the time these days, we hear of youngsters who do something wrong, say at school and when their parents find out about it, they go to the school and lay into the teachers!! This teaches the child a valuable lesson - no matter what I do, my parents will back me up regardless.
No wonder they do as they like.
I think corporal punishment may be a useful tool to have as a last resort, but there are lots of other issues that need addressing before the child gets to that stage. Parenting classes maybe? Lots of todays parents are the result of bad parenting by their own parents and this then continues down through the generations.
Someone needs to stamp on the brake right now and stop this madness.
I don't think corporal punishment should ever be brought back as it doesn't solve anything. For children to be disruptive and out of control its mostly due to lack of discipline at home, so its more the poor parenting skills and dysfunctional families that are to blame ...
Having said that, I do think discipline means keeping the children in line and most of them are a good bunch and don't create any trouble but for the unruly ones who are hyperactive/out of control and cause chaos wherever they go, they need to be smacked (by that I'm not saying beating them up) and grounded from time to time by their parents before it gets worse and becomes a constant problem where they can't even attend school like other children as they are too disruptive, unable to cope with authority or show respect to others. Its all to do with upbringing in my opinion and disciplining the child should solely be the parents responsibility, no one else's.
Having said that, I do think discipline means keeping the children in line and most of them are a good bunch and don't create any trouble but for the unruly ones who are hyperactive/out of control and cause chaos wherever they go, they need to be smacked (by that I'm not saying beating them up) and grounded from time to time by their parents before it gets worse and becomes a constant problem where they can't even attend school like other children as they are too disruptive, unable to cope with authority or show respect to others. Its all to do with upbringing in my opinion and disciplining the child should solely be the parents responsibility, no one else's.
