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The Importance Of Jerusalem.
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The Bible emphasises the importance of Jerusalem throughout. Quite simply because it is Gods' holy city. It features in so many prophecies, and three major religions lay claim to it. Yet, it has no natural resources, does not occupy a stratiegically or commercially important location, and it is never out of the news. There have been more resolutions passed by the U.N. on the subject of Israel / Jerusalem than on any other issue in its lamentable history.
This is all in accordance with Bible prophecy, that calls Jerusalem a, "burdensome stone," for the nations. Now Tony Blair thinks he can sort out the problem in his new job as Middle East envoy.
So, as a Christian, I know why Jerusalem is important and never off the news, but what explanation would an atheist give, other than to say it is simply a coincidence that the Bible prophecies concerning Jerusalem just happen to be accurate?
This is all in accordance with Bible prophecy, that calls Jerusalem a, "burdensome stone," for the nations. Now Tony Blair thinks he can sort out the problem in his new job as Middle East envoy.
So, as a Christian, I know why Jerusalem is important and never off the news, but what explanation would an atheist give, other than to say it is simply a coincidence that the Bible prophecies concerning Jerusalem just happen to be accurate?
Answers
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Ah that's easy Theland.
Let's look at the whole quote:
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zech 12:3).
This was written what 518BC? less than 20 years after the Jews returned from Babylon.
This is a curse, reassuring the Jews that Jerusalem will be a thorn in the side of anybody who attacks them again. It's not promissing grief to anybody but rather anybody else.
So actually it's inaccurate as after that time there was wave after wave of successfull invasions like the Romans who were certainly not cut into pieces - you missed that bit of the prophesy - I wonder why?
Let's look at the whole quote:
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zech 12:3).
This was written what 518BC? less than 20 years after the Jews returned from Babylon.
This is a curse, reassuring the Jews that Jerusalem will be a thorn in the side of anybody who attacks them again. It's not promissing grief to anybody but rather anybody else.
So actually it's inaccurate as after that time there was wave after wave of successfull invasions like the Romans who were certainly not cut into pieces - you missed that bit of the prophesy - I wonder why?
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Actually, jake, intellectual honesty, regardless of whether or not one is a believer, demands not only the reading of the entire verse as you have demonstrated, but the entire context of the Chapter and indeed, the entire Book. A cardinal rule of thumb for Biblical interpretation is to understand the setting, both in time as well as place for a disputed writing. There are, I'm sure you know, many views of the source and actual time of Zechariah's writing(s). However, having said that, it's clear that this is an end times vision or prophecy. It comports well with the other writings of this nature in the Old Covenant and is explained further by the New Covenant Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ ... unto his servant John.
In fact, on a comparison via Strong's indicates clearly that the phrase "The Day of the LORD (or That Day) is always seen as occurring at the end of the age when all the nations come against Ysrael culminating on the Plains of Meggido. Additionally, Christian expositors see the reference to The Angel of the LORD in Verse 8 as always attached only to Yeshua ha Maschiach rather than using the appelation "An Angel of the LORD.
Your point is well taken concerning Rome's oppression of Jerusalem (indeed all of Ysrael and Judah) being successful for their moment in history... however, that observation begs the question of where is the mighty Roman Empire today? Like all that have come against the for the Ah'lul Kitab(The People of the Book) , destruction appears inevitable...
In fact, on a comparison via Strong's indicates clearly that the phrase "The Day of the LORD (or That Day) is always seen as occurring at the end of the age when all the nations come against Ysrael culminating on the Plains of Meggido. Additionally, Christian expositors see the reference to The Angel of the LORD in Verse 8 as always attached only to Yeshua ha Maschiach rather than using the appelation "An Angel of the LORD.
Your point is well taken concerning Rome's oppression of Jerusalem (indeed all of Ysrael and Judah) being successful for their moment in history... however, that observation begs the question of where is the mighty Roman Empire today? Like all that have come against the for the Ah'lul Kitab(The People of the Book) , destruction appears inevitable...
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Clanad,
Predicting the fall of an empire is no great feat, "If you wait long enough you'll see the bodies of your enemies float by"
I don't think it's clear at all that this is an end times prophesy - after all we're not talking past tense here, no threat to cut apart all those who burdened themselves with it in the past.
Theland doesn't think so - he thinks the prophesy has been fulfilled - that's the point of the question.
It all goes to show a prophesy isn't a prophesy if it's not clearly understood before it comes to pass.
Otherwise whether it's the Bible, the Oracle at Delphi or Nostradamus it's just a contorted interpretation of a bunch of ramblings.
Of course if you want to prove me wrong and use your bible to predict something specific that'll happen say this year, I'll be most interested
Predicting the fall of an empire is no great feat, "If you wait long enough you'll see the bodies of your enemies float by"
I don't think it's clear at all that this is an end times prophesy - after all we're not talking past tense here, no threat to cut apart all those who burdened themselves with it in the past.
Theland doesn't think so - he thinks the prophesy has been fulfilled - that's the point of the question.
It all goes to show a prophesy isn't a prophesy if it's not clearly understood before it comes to pass.
Otherwise whether it's the Bible, the Oracle at Delphi or Nostradamus it's just a contorted interpretation of a bunch of ramblings.
Of course if you want to prove me wrong and use your bible to predict something specific that'll happen say this year, I'll be most interested
I appreciate your views, jake and never did I expect we would reach any consensus... however, and I certainly wouldn't speak for Theland, but I don't see anything in his current question that suggests he believes the prophecy has been fulfilled. Additionally, the verse quoted can apply to current or past events, as Theland has suggested, as well as at the end times... thanks for your considered views... Sha'alu shalom Yerushalyim...
Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews, just won't go away will they? Oh so insignificant in size and numbers, yet Israel continues to fulfill the prophecies written in the Bible. A people without a country for so long, under the heel of the Nazi jackboot, and as Clanad infers, where is the German empire now? Israel is blessed, by the sheer hard work and determination of its people, and is a blessing to the world. Look at the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Jews, compared to the number awarded to Arabs. And compare their populations. 6 m Jews in Israel and 5.5 m in the Diaspora, compared to 500 m Arabs. Yes, they are blessed, as the land that they transformed from swamp and desert to fertility. All of it prophesied. And what of Jerusalem itself? The end time prophecies concerning the holy city are becoming ever more apparent. By the way, what happened to Saddams Iraqui empire? It went the same way as all of the rest who attacked the apple of gods' eye.
Yes, truly amazing.
Yes, truly amazing.
olly8080 - Why thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom, in such a carefully considered post. Your scholarship and reasoning and the basis for your belief is not readily apparent, but that I presume is because you prefer subtlety rather than present your views in such a way as they may appear, to some, to be confrontational.
Am I correct in guessing that you have a scientific, theological or philosophical background? Or are you, going to surprise us all and tell us you are only a cog in the machine, but are the proud owner of a library ticket?
Either way, your arguments are so well constructed, and obviously took a long time to prepare, that I must urge you to post here more often, and contribute your great insights to the debates. Once again, many thanks.
Am I correct in guessing that you have a scientific, theological or philosophical background? Or are you, going to surprise us all and tell us you are only a cog in the machine, but are the proud owner of a library ticket?
Either way, your arguments are so well constructed, and obviously took a long time to prepare, that I must urge you to post here more often, and contribute your great insights to the debates. Once again, many thanks.
lol are you the one that believes some bloke 2000 years ago fed 5000 people with a loaf and 2 fish and turned water into wine .Do you believe Paul Daniels is the next messiah???? If you don't know who he is he,s a magician . Grow up smell the coffee good lad or lass don't ram your beliefs down peoples throats its called brainwashing .Go away and stand in a shopping centre with a sign saying "jesus saves"
As you say Theland the Bible quite likes Jerusalem.
And as there are lot of people across the globe that believe in this bunk then it stands to reason that there is a lot of focus on it, good and bad.
Having three major religions lay claim to it and knowing how comtemptuous you religious types are to each other when it comes to differing beliefs it doesn't take Mystic Meg to predict that there's gonna be friction.
It aint rocket science just a little bit of reasoning, you may have heard of it.
The real question is of course knowing the prophecy, have the nutters just set about making it come true simply because the Bible said it would be?
And as there are lot of people across the globe that believe in this bunk then it stands to reason that there is a lot of focus on it, good and bad.
Having three major religions lay claim to it and knowing how comtemptuous you religious types are to each other when it comes to differing beliefs it doesn't take Mystic Meg to predict that there's gonna be friction.
It aint rocket science just a little bit of reasoning, you may have heard of it.
The real question is of course knowing the prophecy, have the nutters just set about making it come true simply because the Bible said it would be?
Your sarcastic response to olly8080, Theland, is rich coming from one who has consistently refused to partake in any debate about your religion that involves "scholarship and reasoning", fact, history, logic and commonsense.
When you have acquired a facility in a few of those tools perhaps you could tackle olly again.
When you have acquired a facility in a few of those tools perhaps you could tackle olly again.
Logic? Reasoning? Like believing something came somehow from nothing?
As for sarcasm, I thought to make the point that abusing the anonymity we have by being insulting is simply bad manners. Olly88 is perfectly entitled to disagree with me, but I would like to ask him to use the courtesies that are common to others who disagree with me, such as yourself, Waldo, Mibs, Lamatron, Naomi and Wiz, none of whom use anonymity to take cheap insulting shots at me. Oh, it doesn't bother me that much personally, but isn't that sort of thing best avoided by common consent?
Can a Christian express a view on here without inviting insults?
As for sarcasm, I thought to make the point that abusing the anonymity we have by being insulting is simply bad manners. Olly88 is perfectly entitled to disagree with me, but I would like to ask him to use the courtesies that are common to others who disagree with me, such as yourself, Waldo, Mibs, Lamatron, Naomi and Wiz, none of whom use anonymity to take cheap insulting shots at me. Oh, it doesn't bother me that much personally, but isn't that sort of thing best avoided by common consent?
Can a Christian express a view on here without inviting insults?
just for your information i believe that parts of jordan and syria occupy some of the original land of israel.
Also, after WWII, Zionists were contemplating where to create a jewish state Ethiopia was suggested. Can you imagine Israel where Ethiopia is now? Would that fulfil the prophecy even though its in a different geographic location?
Also, after WWII, Zionists were contemplating where to create a jewish state Ethiopia was suggested. Can you imagine Israel where Ethiopia is now? Would that fulfil the prophecy even though its in a different geographic location?
I'm a bit out of my depth in this section (some would say in all sections), but have you heard of La Convivencia?
In short, this was a period in Spanish history (711 to 1492) when Christians (Catholics), Muslims and Jews all lived in peace with each in a climate of religious tolerance. If only that could happen in Jerusalem.
Good thread by the way Theland, and some excellent answers.
In short, this was a period in Spanish history (711 to 1492) when Christians (Catholics), Muslims and Jews all lived in peace with each in a climate of religious tolerance. If only that could happen in Jerusalem.
Good thread by the way Theland, and some excellent answers.
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