ChatterBank2 mins ago
Did Jesus really exist?
49 Answers
My sixpenn’orth first, please.
Putting aside all religious considerations and all matters of faith, I maintain that if you look cold-bloodedly and objectively at the provenance of the Jesus story you must conclude that the probability that Jesus did not exist is greater than the probability that he did. Here’s why:
STAGE 1: the years 6BC to AD54
Jesus is supposed to have lived sometime during this period but there is no record of such a person. Not a word from anyone who supposedly knew him or debated with him; nothing from the rich men he counselled, the sick he healed or the thousands he preached to. No mention in Jewish or Roman records of the time or by any contemporary historians. So, two possibilities:
A: Jesus did not exist.
B: Jesus did exist but there was a conspiracy of silence lasting over half a century among a large number of people most of whom had no connection with each other.
STAGE 2: Paul’s epistles AD55 to AD60
There is where Jesus first appears. But Paul, who introduces the idea to the world, offers no evidence to back his claims or any eye-witness testimony that we can examine for ourselves. So, two possibilities:
A. Jesus did not exist.
B. Jesus did exist but Paul deliberately kept from us anything that could vouch for him.
STAGE 3: The gospels, AD70 to AD 90 -120??
As with Paul, these four unknown people also offer no evidence or first-hand testimony. So, two possibilities:
A: Jesus did not exist
B: Jesus did exist but the gospel writers continued the conspiracy that had started a century earlier.
Which is more probable - that A is correct or that all those Bs are simultaneously correct? I know where my money is.
Over to you, folks.
Putting aside all religious considerations and all matters of faith, I maintain that if you look cold-bloodedly and objectively at the provenance of the Jesus story you must conclude that the probability that Jesus did not exist is greater than the probability that he did. Here’s why:
STAGE 1: the years 6BC to AD54
Jesus is supposed to have lived sometime during this period but there is no record of such a person. Not a word from anyone who supposedly knew him or debated with him; nothing from the rich men he counselled, the sick he healed or the thousands he preached to. No mention in Jewish or Roman records of the time or by any contemporary historians. So, two possibilities:
A: Jesus did not exist.
B: Jesus did exist but there was a conspiracy of silence lasting over half a century among a large number of people most of whom had no connection with each other.
STAGE 2: Paul’s epistles AD55 to AD60
There is where Jesus first appears. But Paul, who introduces the idea to the world, offers no evidence to back his claims or any eye-witness testimony that we can examine for ourselves. So, two possibilities:
A. Jesus did not exist.
B. Jesus did exist but Paul deliberately kept from us anything that could vouch for him.
STAGE 3: The gospels, AD70 to AD 90 -120??
As with Paul, these four unknown people also offer no evidence or first-hand testimony. So, two possibilities:
A: Jesus did not exist
B: Jesus did exist but the gospel writers continued the conspiracy that had started a century earlier.
Which is more probable - that A is correct or that all those Bs are simultaneously correct? I know where my money is.
Over to you, folks.
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there would have been thousands of people living in the area at the time. We know about a mere handful of them (the rulers, mainly). It's not like today where you can look up genealogical websites or dig out centuries-old documents from the archives. Very little writing has survived from those days at all, and most of that by chance. There's nothing remarkable in there being no record of someone. Billions of people have died through the millennia leaving no records. It's been normal for most of human existence. It proves nothing either way.
An alternative question would be: why would someone go to the trouble of inventing a preacher when there were plenty of real ones around?
An alternative question would be: why would someone go to the trouble of inventing a preacher when there were plenty of real ones around?
And you reject Jospephus' mentioning him why?
It's hardly surprising that no record of him exists after all our records of Shakespere are almost non exisistant and he was a rich man when he died and that was only 4 centuries ago
Why do you claim the gospels offer no first hand account? - if you can't positively identify the authors you can't dismiss them being first hand accounts.
Personally I'd not dismiss the notion that he didn't exist but my money's on him existing.
Although I think if you were suddenly transported to that time you'd have a heck of a job identifying him
It's hardly surprising that no record of him exists after all our records of Shakespere are almost non exisistant and he was a rich man when he died and that was only 4 centuries ago
Why do you claim the gospels offer no first hand account? - if you can't positively identify the authors you can't dismiss them being first hand accounts.
Personally I'd not dismiss the notion that he didn't exist but my money's on him existing.
Although I think if you were suddenly transported to that time you'd have a heck of a job identifying him
i'm not certain, but pretty sure that i've heard over the years that documents or some sort of remains have been found for a man called yeshua (jewish translation of jesus) however, the timing doesn't coincide with the dates that he was supposed to be living in. which is easy to confuse as the calender etc wasn't invented until centuries later, leaving the ambiguity. I've also seen that the 'stories' in the bible are more parables rather than actual fact and that a lesson is in them for people to learn from...
Comments so far:
I.Dont.No, sandyRoe and cupid04: I did say to put religious belief aside and look at the facts.
Old-Geezer and jno: but this man is supposed to have been something unbelievable. In any case there was plenty of informtion about supposed contemporaries of Jesus. Why not about this amazing fellow?
j-t-p and octogenarian: Josephus was not born until AD38 and did not write his few words about Jesus until the 2nd Century. I was talking about historians who were reporting affairs in Palestine at the time when Jesus was supposed to be alive, such as Philo and Justus of Tiberias.
Anyone want to challenge my analysis as it stands?
I.Dont.No, sandyRoe and cupid04: I did say to put religious belief aside and look at the facts.
Old-Geezer and jno: but this man is supposed to have been something unbelievable. In any case there was plenty of informtion about supposed contemporaries of Jesus. Why not about this amazing fellow?
j-t-p and octogenarian: Josephus was not born until AD38 and did not write his few words about Jesus until the 2nd Century. I was talking about historians who were reporting affairs in Palestine at the time when Jesus was supposed to be alive, such as Philo and Justus of Tiberias.
Anyone want to challenge my analysis as it stands?
-- answer removed --
there's not that much information about contemporaries; we're not talking about a written culture here. (In Rome maybe, not in the provinces). As I think jake once pointed out, Jesus himself is only said to have written one thing, with a stick in the sand.
One non-written piece of evidence: the Holy Sepulchre. This has been a site of pilgrimage since the earliest times - the days of people who knew perfectly well where the crucifixion took place because they were there. Hadrian had it concreted over and a statue of Jupiter erected - which of course helped Christians find it and dig it up again when the empire became Christian. It's housed a church more or less non-stop ever since.
My guess is that Jesus existed because, as I've said, what would be the point of inventing him? If people were really in it for the money or the glory, they'd have been better off claiming to be the saviour themselves. His teachings in the Bible seem pretty coherent - though how far they reflect what he actually said at the time, and how far they've been edited into coherence, we'll never know.
One non-written piece of evidence: the Holy Sepulchre. This has been a site of pilgrimage since the earliest times - the days of people who knew perfectly well where the crucifixion took place because they were there. Hadrian had it concreted over and a statue of Jupiter erected - which of course helped Christians find it and dig it up again when the empire became Christian. It's housed a church more or less non-stop ever since.
My guess is that Jesus existed because, as I've said, what would be the point of inventing him? If people were really in it for the money or the glory, they'd have been better off claiming to be the saviour themselves. His teachings in the Bible seem pretty coherent - though how far they reflect what he actually said at the time, and how far they've been edited into coherence, we'll never know.
If proof came to light that he didn`t exist what would that do to the Roman church and others who believe he was the son of God? Personally I believe he did exist but his importance has been blown out of all proportion down through the centuries, once the bandwagon started rolling there was a mad scramble to get on board which ended up turning him into someone he was not, Still without proof it all comes down to what you want to believe.
I have always thought that he did exist but that he was a very good teacher, or rabbi. For his teachings to have lasted down through the years they must be good, although no doubt they have probably been changed in translation. If you can live according to his teachings (even if they have changed, it is all we have remaining), you can't go far wrong. However many of the stories about him I think are just that - stories, which sometimes add to the teaching.I do not believe that he was the son of God. He was a human being the same as we all are and the miracles etc. were made up by his followers for their own purposes as teachers themselves. Well, that's my opinion.
Jesus lived in a high rise in Newcastle - this gave him a leg up for ascending into heaven (see the last item)
He was born in a pub out near the Nissan factory.
His father was a carpenter in the city and his mother unemployed.
His most famous deed was to make 5000 pints of Newcie Brown (aka 'The Dog') out of Tyne water.
He managed to feed the 5000 people with Greggs Steake and Bakes, even with the miracle of them having meat inside them rather than their usual emptiness or gristle.
Judas betrayed him - Judas was Peter Mandelson - after all he betrayed the North East to the Governor of Jerusalem aka London, one Herod McBrown.
He was crucified on the Angel of the North and his local 'wor' Mary cleaned him up with a cloot.
He went up into Heaven to see his old man, his Gadgie - actually he left by the Gadgie's airline, Ryan Air, from Newcastle International Airport.
His biggest miracle was to save the City, the Magpies that is, getting them back to the Premier League, albeit only for a short time in all probability. He sold its best possession to Liverpool FC for a knock-down fee.
So endeth the 1st book of DTC. Amen
He was born in a pub out near the Nissan factory.
His father was a carpenter in the city and his mother unemployed.
His most famous deed was to make 5000 pints of Newcie Brown (aka 'The Dog') out of Tyne water.
He managed to feed the 5000 people with Greggs Steake and Bakes, even with the miracle of them having meat inside them rather than their usual emptiness or gristle.
Judas betrayed him - Judas was Peter Mandelson - after all he betrayed the North East to the Governor of Jerusalem aka London, one Herod McBrown.
He was crucified on the Angel of the North and his local 'wor' Mary cleaned him up with a cloot.
He went up into Heaven to see his old man, his Gadgie - actually he left by the Gadgie's airline, Ryan Air, from Newcastle International Airport.
His biggest miracle was to save the City, the Magpies that is, getting them back to the Premier League, albeit only for a short time in all probability. He sold its best possession to Liverpool FC for a knock-down fee.
So endeth the 1st book of DTC. Amen
