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Hiding Assets
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There was recently a post about whether you could sell your home to children to later avoid having to pay care home fees. Well putting the house aside, I wondered about protecting your assets. As far as I am aware, if you have a stash of cash, you somehow need to get it out of the banking system otherwise the authorities can quite easily find it. putting it into the stock market or buying premium bonds won't keep it hidden because they can find money that has been invested like that.
So to get cash out of the banking system and away from the authorities, it would hardly be recommended to take the cash out of the bank and Stuff it under a mattress, so what about buying something valuable like jewelry or antiques maybe then keep them in a safety deposit box? Is there any way the authorities could get hold of something like that and claim it back towards paying care costs?
So to get cash out of the banking system and away from the authorities, it would hardly be recommended to take the cash out of the bank and Stuff it under a mattress, so what about buying something valuable like jewelry or antiques maybe then keep them in a safety deposit box? Is there any way the authorities could get hold of something like that and claim it back towards paying care costs?
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It's probably worth if the money was spent gradually over a few years (say £3000 a year over 10 years) but if may mean the person needing care then gets no choice over which home they go in as Social Services are paying. I struggle to see the point of having money hidden in a safe and struggling along knowing I'm never going to use it . And there's also a risk SS may challenge the expenditure a sthey are quite vigilant and sometimes people tell tales
Hello ummmm, well the current situation is that anyone who has more than £23000 in assets has to pay the full cost of care home fees. When my parents had to go into care, it cost them over £200,000 in fees 5 which practically wiped out everything. They had worked hard all of their lives for everything they had, they both had private pensions which if they had to just use that towards their care I would have accepted that, but no, they took everything pensin money, the home and their savings. Yet others who have either just blown everything or not contributed anything into the system can get their care all paid for. Do you think that is fair?
I will admit that there is another side of this in that as we had to pay for my parents care it meant that we could choose where they went, if it had been paid for by the council we may not have had this choice though we do know that in the care home where my parents stayed, there were other residents who had their care paid in full by the council.
Some years ago the then Government, requested an independent report into the situation of paying for care costs, in the published report it was recommended that the threshold of having to pay the fees should be raised from £23000 up to £100,000. This has not been acted on, Instead I believe the government plan to raise the threshold to 27,000 in 2020. Typical of the government not to listen!
I will admit that there is another side of this in that as we had to pay for my parents care it meant that we could choose where they went, if it had been paid for by the council we may not have had this choice though we do know that in the care home where my parents stayed, there were other residents who had their care paid in full by the council.
Some years ago the then Government, requested an independent report into the situation of paying for care costs, in the published report it was recommended that the threshold of having to pay the fees should be raised from £23000 up to £100,000. This has not been acted on, Instead I believe the government plan to raise the threshold to 27,000 in 2020. Typical of the government not to listen!
Having been through this situation myself, I'm aware of how emotive and upsetting this situation is. My mother went to a local authority care home and the fees were postponed until after her death following an arrangement I made with the Council. All along, the council acted as if they were doing me a favour by delaying the payments. Upon the sale of her property, 65% of the proceeds were taken by the local authority as they had put a "charge" on the property sale.
Turning to the issue of payment, it all has absolutely nothing to do with how hard the patient has worked or saved. Someone has to pay the hundreds of pounds it takes to accomodate people. If they have assets, they pay. If not, the fees are paid by the council tax and other revenue paid by the people of the county. The counter-argument is why should people unrelated to your nearest and dearest foot the bill? They like everyone else would prefer to have the money they paid to the council to go for their own benefit. Your local authority will always tell you that these homes cost a considerable sum to run and those that can afford to pay the fees should pay. Only the penurious will have their fees paid for them. Councils ask if people really want their libraries, parks and swimming pools to close because they claim that that is what will happen if people in the homes depend on their accomodation being paid for by the council.
Turning to the issue of payment, it all has absolutely nothing to do with how hard the patient has worked or saved. Someone has to pay the hundreds of pounds it takes to accomodate people. If they have assets, they pay. If not, the fees are paid by the council tax and other revenue paid by the people of the county. The counter-argument is why should people unrelated to your nearest and dearest foot the bill? They like everyone else would prefer to have the money they paid to the council to go for their own benefit. Your local authority will always tell you that these homes cost a considerable sum to run and those that can afford to pay the fees should pay. Only the penurious will have their fees paid for them. Councils ask if people really want their libraries, parks and swimming pools to close because they claim that that is what will happen if people in the homes depend on their accomodation being paid for by the council.
I don't think it's right to cite those that have not contributed anything to the system as freeloaders in cases like this. I met genuine, proud and sometimes formely wealthy people who had fallen on hard times for all sorts of reasons during the time my mum was a resident. It can happen to the best of us.
I doubt very much whether you will ever see the ceiling raised to £100K. The government would make sure that policing the system and collecting the money remains firmly in the hands of the local authority. The people in your county would protest from the rooftops, confront your county councillors and effectively cause turmoil within local government. Would you be willing to pay the care home fees of a neighbour you hardly know via a percentage of local taxation knowing that that person has possibly £100K plus in assets? Ultimately, the fees have to be paid by someone.
I doubt very much whether you will ever see the ceiling raised to £100K. The government would make sure that policing the system and collecting the money remains firmly in the hands of the local authority. The people in your county would protest from the rooftops, confront your county councillors and effectively cause turmoil within local government. Would you be willing to pay the care home fees of a neighbour you hardly know via a percentage of local taxation knowing that that person has possibly £100K plus in assets? Ultimately, the fees have to be paid by someone.
Thanks kirstybeebee. I think one of the things that shocked me the most about the local authority was when they asked if my mum was receiving all the benefits she was entitled too. My dad had died the week before and her fraility was what had put her in the home. Anyhow, a council social worker arranged for my mum to be assessed by a DWP assessor who went through all her pensions, benefits etc. it turned out she was entitled to about £100 more per week after this assessment. The very first week the increased benefit payment was made, the council insisted it was all paid to them to cover the care home fees. My mum never benefited by a penny.
The care home manager told me later this was common practice to ensure all residents were assessed in this way as it meant the council could claw back the fees quicker. I was aghast.
The care home manager told me later this was common practice to ensure all residents were assessed in this way as it meant the council could claw back the fees quicker. I was aghast.
There are those among us who are not supposed to have wealth and when it happens you can be sure that a scheme will soon be found to separate them from it.....and there are those who cynically dispose of it directly they get it, either by taking the whole family to Disneyland for a fortnight (I know someone who did just that on retirement) or those who keep all their assets with relatives and banks in one of the 'stans, and take full advantage of all the State has to offer.
Annoying as it is, you can't help it if you are basically law abiding and honest, so either live with it, or do what you think an MP would do.....
Annoying as it is, you can't help it if you are basically law abiding and honest, so either live with it, or do what you think an MP would do.....
Thanks MT Bowels, no wonder you were aghast! I remember my mum telling me that she knew of many others who were getting all sorts of benefits but my parents could never get anything as they had work and state pensions which always took them over the threshold.
If I should need care in the future, one item that the authorities definitely won't be seizing from me is a house, as I don't own one!
If I should need care in the future, one item that the authorities definitely won't be seizing from me is a house, as I don't own one!
The Social Services Residential Recovery Team (what a title!) at my County Hall told me that they had the right to any documentation disclosing my mum's assets, bank statements, share document, house deeds, DWP records and God knows what in order to ensure that my mum could be means tested.
Foolishly, I believed them, a situation I regret to this day. They insisted I send them 12 months of bank statements and all DWP correspondence regarding state pension. My dad had received a small private pension and they wanted proof of that too. I complied with their request.
What I didn't know was that they were lying. Your local authority cannot obtain detailed DWP records from the DWP. The exception is CT and HB claims, where the DWP tell the local authority only basic information to assess if a person is entitled to claim. The local authority cannot access pension records nor private pension stuff. They also can't get bank statements or share details etc. In fact, they are powerless and rely entirely on disclosure by the next-of-kin at a time when they are often at their weakest.
Because I was slow in responding to a council request to have my mum's home valued independantly, they sent a council valuer out to provide a figure based on an external viewing! This figure was incorporated into the assets figure without my intervention.
Little wonder the care home management told me to provide them with as little as possible information regarding my mum's financial affairs. They had seen it all before. Ultimately though, it was merely a respite as the bill for her care arrived on my doormat two weeks after her death.
Foolishly, I believed them, a situation I regret to this day. They insisted I send them 12 months of bank statements and all DWP correspondence regarding state pension. My dad had received a small private pension and they wanted proof of that too. I complied with their request.
What I didn't know was that they were lying. Your local authority cannot obtain detailed DWP records from the DWP. The exception is CT and HB claims, where the DWP tell the local authority only basic information to assess if a person is entitled to claim. The local authority cannot access pension records nor private pension stuff. They also can't get bank statements or share details etc. In fact, they are powerless and rely entirely on disclosure by the next-of-kin at a time when they are often at their weakest.
Because I was slow in responding to a council request to have my mum's home valued independantly, they sent a council valuer out to provide a figure based on an external viewing! This figure was incorporated into the assets figure without my intervention.
Little wonder the care home management told me to provide them with as little as possible information regarding my mum's financial affairs. They had seen it all before. Ultimately though, it was merely a respite as the bill for her care arrived on my doormat two weeks after her death.
"How is it unfair?"
I think the more pertinent question should be "How is it fair?"
How is it fair that a person who has accumulated savings (and presumably has contributed nicely to the Exchequer's income throughout their life) has to pay for something that is provided "free" to those who have not accumulated any funds?
The answer I suppose is that if you think fairness is about taking money from those that can afford it whilst not doing so from those that cannot then it's fair. Personally I think that people who have contributed to the pot should be entitled to take some out when necessary.
I think the more pertinent question should be "How is it fair?"
How is it fair that a person who has accumulated savings (and presumably has contributed nicely to the Exchequer's income throughout their life) has to pay for something that is provided "free" to those who have not accumulated any funds?
The answer I suppose is that if you think fairness is about taking money from those that can afford it whilst not doing so from those that cannot then it's fair. Personally I think that people who have contributed to the pot should be entitled to take some out when necessary.
Thank you for your comments New Judge, I totally agree. My parents had indeed nicely contributed to the Exchequer's income throughout their lives yet when it came to care - "Sorry no funding at all for you".
They both had works pensions as well as their state pensions. I'm not absolutely sure of the combined total of those pensions but I believe it was in the region of £20,000 a year.
If the rules were that all pension money must be contributed towards the cost of care, I could accept that, they would still have been contributing £20,000 a year towards their care which I consider to be a significant amount. But they are not satisfied with that, they also demand their possessions that they have stated in their will they want to leave to their family. This is in the rules of the law, but in my eyes it is not that short of theft.
They both had works pensions as well as their state pensions. I'm not absolutely sure of the combined total of those pensions but I believe it was in the region of £20,000 a year.
If the rules were that all pension money must be contributed towards the cost of care, I could accept that, they would still have been contributing £20,000 a year towards their care which I consider to be a significant amount. But they are not satisfied with that, they also demand their possessions that they have stated in their will they want to leave to their family. This is in the rules of the law, but in my eyes it is not that short of theft.
I don't quite understand how they have accessed the Wills. Did you disclose the details of the Wills to the local authority, possibly without being aware of the implications?
My experience has been that local authorities rely on fear to extract from the next-of-kin the maximum details of assets that they consider they can raid in order to pay the care home fees.
As I said earlier, they have no legal right to this information. They cannot access DWP stuff and the DWP will only provide the minimum information. They certainly cannot force a solicitor to disclose details of a Will no matter how much they jump up and down. If they cite valuable possessions in their claim for reimbursement, then someone, somewhere must have disclosed the existence of these possessions. How did this happen?
My experience has been that local authorities rely on fear to extract from the next-of-kin the maximum details of assets that they consider they can raid in order to pay the care home fees.
As I said earlier, they have no legal right to this information. They cannot access DWP stuff and the DWP will only provide the minimum information. They certainly cannot force a solicitor to disclose details of a Will no matter how much they jump up and down. If they cite valuable possessions in their claim for reimbursement, then someone, somewhere must have disclosed the existence of these possessions. How did this happen?
MTbowels, when I have read my message through again I haven't worded it very well! They didn't access the will at all, in their will, my parents left everything to me, my sister and brother. I was just trying to make the point that although they made a will for everything to be split between family members, the authorities still have the power to claim whatever assets there are to cover the care costs. Sorry for the confusion.
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