ChatterBank51 mins ago
Cptpp
21 Answers
Having left the EU, the UK is proposing to join the CPTPP (a Pacific trading group of countries) having regained our sovereignty.
While we were members of the EU, we had a say in their laws (including those related to trade) with our MEPs representing our interests in the EU parliament.
But joining the CPTPP will force the UK to adopt laws governing trade rules set by Johnny Foreigner, that the UK had no say in – and will have no say in.
Once the Brexit xenophobes realise this, they will be choking on their Sovereign Duchy Original Organic biscuits.
Just how important this CPTPP trade agreement is to the UK can be seen from the following trade figures:-
In 2019 we exported around £1 billion worth of goods to the countries within the CPTPP bloc, compared with around £ 300 billion to EU counties (despite having left the EU).
While we were members of the EU, we had a say in their laws (including those related to trade) with our MEPs representing our interests in the EU parliament.
But joining the CPTPP will force the UK to adopt laws governing trade rules set by Johnny Foreigner, that the UK had no say in – and will have no say in.
Once the Brexit xenophobes realise this, they will be choking on their Sovereign Duchy Original Organic biscuits.
Just how important this CPTPP trade agreement is to the UK can be seen from the following trade figures:-
In 2019 we exported around £1 billion worth of goods to the countries within the CPTPP bloc, compared with around £ 300 billion to EU counties (despite having left the EU).
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What specific laws would we have to adopt, Hymie?
If you’d like to familiarise yourself with the details before you answer (which I suggest you do) you might like to read the following:
https:/
If you’d like to familiarise yourself with the details before you answer (which I suggest you do) you might like to read the following:
https:/
As above, could you provide us with any specific "laws" the UK will have to adopt as part of its membership? Apart from trade specific regulations (which is a given for a trading bloc) will there be any similar to, say, the working time directive or any of the EU's environmental legislation? Will those laws take precedence over UK laws? To help you along, here's an extract from the CTPP's views on those matters:
"Labour and the environment: CPTPP includes clear commitments to uphold CPTPP members’ respective standards on labour and environment and not to undermine them for commercial gain."
"Labour and the environment: CPTPP includes clear commitments to uphold CPTPP members’ respective standards on labour and environment and not to undermine them for commercial gain."
That’s how trade deals work, by joining the trading bloc we will have to accept their rules, and accept the standards imposed for products exported and imported (to and from the bloc).
That is the whole point of the free movement of goods within the EU, whereby goods have to comply with agreed standards – with member States required to enact laws mandating such requirements.
We won’t be able to insist that products are CE or UKCA marked (as currently required by UK law) if their trading rules do not allow such restrictions.
Apparently even George Useless (the former Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affaires) has admitted as much in an article written for the Financial Times.
I suggest you get those Sovereign Duchy Original Organic biscuits out of the cupboard.
That is the whole point of the free movement of goods within the EU, whereby goods have to comply with agreed standards – with member States required to enact laws mandating such requirements.
We won’t be able to insist that products are CE or UKCA marked (as currently required by UK law) if their trading rules do not allow such restrictions.
Apparently even George Useless (the former Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affaires) has admitted as much in an article written for the Financial Times.
I suggest you get those Sovereign Duchy Original Organic biscuits out of the cupboard.
No trade agreement that doesn't respect the regulations of it's members, is worth joining. Free movement of goods can only be applied and acceptable if it complies with the regulations of the receiving nation. If a trade block can not arrange that then it is failing and attempting to control sovereign nations outside any basic trade remit. A nation decides what standards it has, not some outside group.
Why would a trading bloc located around the Pacific, require goods exported between members to be CE or UKCA marked (effectively a declaration that the goods meet the requirements of UK law)?
Having agreed to be a member of a trading bloc, we cannot refuse entry of goods that meet the agreed standards (of that trading bloc), standards which we have no say over.
Having agreed to be a member of a trading bloc, we cannot refuse entry of goods that meet the agreed standards (of that trading bloc), standards which we have no say over.
Having agree to be members of the trading block (accepting their standards for goods) – if goods from a member State arrive at a UK port, which do not meet the legal requirements allowing them to be imported to the UK, then the UK might block their import.
The exporting State would then cry foul, in that another member State (of the trading bloc) was refusing their goods that met the agreed standards (which would not be permitted by the rules of joining the bloc).
The exporting State would then cry foul, in that another member State (of the trading bloc) was refusing their goods that met the agreed standards (which would not be permitted by the rules of joining the bloc).
//You’re just making things up now. Stop digging.//
I think you're right, Zacs. This is a specious argument which has no foundation.
Of course members of a trading bloc have to abide by agreed standards for the goods involved. That's the whole point of a trading agreement and if that's all the EU wanted to impose on its members I think there would have been far less opposition to it in the UK. What I think we are both trying to uncover (without success) is what legislation, beyond those applicable to the goods traded, will the UK allegedly be subject to?
Of course there will be negotiations over standards and where EU standards and those of the CTPP diverge there may be either a need for compromise (though, not, of course with the EU as they don't do compromise) or a need to produce goods to two different standards. It may be, perhaps, that as the proportion of trade between the UK and the EU declines, this country may choose to prioritise its efforts towards other markets. Incredible as it may seem, there are countries outside the EU which want to trade globally. Most of them see that as an opportunity not to be missed rather than a challenge to control and regulate.
Apart from the couple of areas mentioned in the extract from the link, I'd also like to ask Hymie :
- Will CTPP have a "Parliament" with elected members from each participating nation?
- Will it have a Commission which has the power to impose laws (other than trading standards) on its members?
- Will it have a court which will rule on disagreements over those laws?
- Will it seek to impose the unfettered right to free movement of people among its members?
- Will it be introducing a Single Currency after we have joined?
- Will it have environmental and social programmes funded by a small number of its members?
- Will it have oversight of each member nation's budget with a power of veto over their budgetary decisions if grants are to be maintained?
The EU is a political construction which aims to maintain political control over its member nations using trade as the baton with which to beat them if they fail to comply. If you believe the CTPP is a similar construction then the answer to some or all of the above questions will be "Yes". If the answer to those questions (and many others of a similar nature) is "No" (as I suspect it is) then I shall not be choking on my Sovereign Duchy Original Organic biscuits just yet.
This latest argument of yours is about as sound as the one you proposed a week or so ago when you suggested that the "Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform ) Bill" would see an end to statutory sick pay and paid holidays. That is, it has no foundation or rationale at all.
I think you're right, Zacs. This is a specious argument which has no foundation.
Of course members of a trading bloc have to abide by agreed standards for the goods involved. That's the whole point of a trading agreement and if that's all the EU wanted to impose on its members I think there would have been far less opposition to it in the UK. What I think we are both trying to uncover (without success) is what legislation, beyond those applicable to the goods traded, will the UK allegedly be subject to?
Of course there will be negotiations over standards and where EU standards and those of the CTPP diverge there may be either a need for compromise (though, not, of course with the EU as they don't do compromise) or a need to produce goods to two different standards. It may be, perhaps, that as the proportion of trade between the UK and the EU declines, this country may choose to prioritise its efforts towards other markets. Incredible as it may seem, there are countries outside the EU which want to trade globally. Most of them see that as an opportunity not to be missed rather than a challenge to control and regulate.
Apart from the couple of areas mentioned in the extract from the link, I'd also like to ask Hymie :
- Will CTPP have a "Parliament" with elected members from each participating nation?
- Will it have a Commission which has the power to impose laws (other than trading standards) on its members?
- Will it have a court which will rule on disagreements over those laws?
- Will it seek to impose the unfettered right to free movement of people among its members?
- Will it be introducing a Single Currency after we have joined?
- Will it have environmental and social programmes funded by a small number of its members?
- Will it have oversight of each member nation's budget with a power of veto over their budgetary decisions if grants are to be maintained?
The EU is a political construction which aims to maintain political control over its member nations using trade as the baton with which to beat them if they fail to comply. If you believe the CTPP is a similar construction then the answer to some or all of the above questions will be "Yes". If the answer to those questions (and many others of a similar nature) is "No" (as I suspect it is) then I shall not be choking on my Sovereign Duchy Original Organic biscuits just yet.
This latest argument of yours is about as sound as the one you proposed a week or so ago when you suggested that the "Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform ) Bill" would see an end to statutory sick pay and paid holidays. That is, it has no foundation or rationale at all.
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