structual engineers £2,000 bill

[what..the?]

I am renovating a property I have a project manager who is a chartered surveyor he has archeticts wirking for him with his firm, but it seems they are not qualified to design some parts of the house mainly some steels in the roof as it is converte into a loft and a small balcony and small beam. They have gone to a structural engineer to do these drawings and the quote is £2,000 with potiental further costs if required of £60 plus VAT per hour plus 50p per mile mileage

Site visits £230.00
Design of steel frame, balcony and internal beam £840.00
Design of rooms in roof void £770.00

The house is fairly small, we were not informed of this extra cost and we are already paying the project manager 10% of the overal cost of the whole project.

Are we being ripped off, I have told them to find someone more cost effective?

[Count-A-Strong]

Yes, that is pretty expensive for the work being undertaken. Why not have alook in your local yellow pages and phone a few?

[madmaggot]

you need to look at the original contract to ascertain for certain if this work was included or not. If not, you're doing all you can in asking them to look for a less expensive option, other than finding someone yourself.
If it was included, point this out to them and confirm that you expect it to be done within the quoted figure.

[what..the?]

well the contract doesnt mention it, but thats because the overall build changed and the changes are what needs the steel work i.e. it was a latter addition but at no point did he say extra people would be bought in at extra cost either in writing or verbally. But I dont think it is the case we can use what was said of not said to get the project manger to pay, I think it is the start of a project and he would just walk and leave us with no one if we asked, so I think he needs to seek a reduction in the quote or find someone else

[Count-A-Strong]

Where do you live what the? get him to walk and I'll come and run the job. I've project managed all sorts of jobs from domestic to big hotel refurbs and never been paid 10%!
Unfortunately, if you haven't been involved in a construction project before, it's a bit of a minefield. As you point out (I think) the services of a SE weren't envisaged in the original designs and have only come about through on site complications therefore I don't really see that the PM can be to blame.

[The Builder]

Just what I was thinking Count!.................. Whattie, I'll do it for 9% lol

Unpleasant situation, but all too common. Lack of communication. I've always made it a rule when plans change, to make sure the client is fully aware of possible extras.......... even down to "worst case scenario".
The trouble is, architects, surveyors etc, are notoriously bad at PR (public relations).
It wasn't in the original contract, but you should have been made aware of possible costs once changes to the spec had been made.
It doesn't sound as though anyone is being purposefully naughty .......... just a tad naive.
Balconies, portal frames, room in a roof etc ................. they do take a lot of design and calculation. Impossible for me to comment without the detail, but it could easily be justified.
Any decent PM would be only too glad to get comparison quotes for you. I think that's the way forward.
Good luck with the project.

[madmaggot]

When I worked in construction we always ensured that any changes were written up and approved by the client before starting on the new spec. If they didn't like the cost of the change it could be looked at then or the spec rejigged. It also protects the tradespeople if there is a later dispute.

[Count-A-Strong]

8.5% !!!

[scotman]

I agree with most posters view. As soon as the magic word 'change' is mentioned in the construction business the bills start to mount up.

[buildersmate]

You get an awful lot of structural engineer calculations for £2000. You cannot avoid this because architects can't do them - you have a use a qualified structural engineer - but the need for this would have been obvious from the start and you should have been told much earlier.

[what..the?]

thanks everyone for the advice I am having a sit down on Thursday with the PM so will see what can be done, if we can save money by going with someone else especially as he has not told us of this new cost, I have been told many times about the council cost £150 planning application plus £750 building reg's but this is double that and not a mention through out...

Everyone offering services at lower cost sorry too late now but you never know what might happen....I was told 10% was standard figure is it not? It was 9% if we used the people he recommended and therefore quicker to organise or 10% if all the jobs were tendered out of firms to get competitive prices leading to lots more work and drawings.

[Count-A-Strong]

So is the PM paying the architect out of his fees? If this is the case and going out to competitive tender has resulted in more work, then I can appreciate this but an extra 1% is an odd figure.

[what..the?]

I am not guessing he will pay he expects us to pay is £2,000 on top, like the the council planning payments we pay that separately in theory is then means he's not taking 10% of these payments too, he will get 10% of the builders fees/bills, I have asked if we can buy equipment and materials and he said that it is very unlikely the builders would do that, but surely if we had an account in our name and the materials going through that which we paid separately it would save us having to pay him 10% on all the materials = huge saving?

[The Builder]

You have my sympathies Whatters ............. this could get messy ............. What you say sounds perfectly reasonable. The trouble is you're stuck with the contract terms ........... which, I guess, stipulates 10% of the Contract Price. Sadly, I think your only room for manoeuvre is with the extras and variations.

[what..the?]

thanks for confirming

[Count-A-Strong]

Just to add, purchasing the materials yourself COULD lead to the builder claiming that they were not of sufficient quality, should any major snagging occur. Unless you can get the builder (or your PM) to agree to giving you a spec from which to buy then this is a risky strategy.

[what..the?]

well my intention was to open an account at a recommended merchant they wanted that supplied nearly all the equipment they would need, then and builders and the PM orders the stuff themselves. And I will rely on the PM to make sure the builder is not order double the amount for use to build his house down the road as well as mine lol

I think now the PM said something about tax reasons, and the reason the builders would only work like thist would to look like a small business to the tax man....

But he didn't say they 100% wouldn't.. as it being tendered out maybe it would be a deciding factor, but their is still the chance the PM will add all the contract costs together including materials and add his 10% so he will have to know why we are doing what we are doing...to save money.

[madmaggot]

But if you bought the materials yourself presumably you wouldn't be able to reclaim the VAT? Therefore your costs would be higher than the builders.