Maths Is Overrated!

[Drusilla]

Why is Maths accepted as holding a pre-eminent place in the education of our children?
I accept the 4 rules of number; addition, subtraction, multiplication and division are important and children need to be able to perform them on paper, with a calculator and in mental arithmetic, but I'm not convinced Maths is important for most of us beyond this.
Maths has always seemed like an imposter to me; like the school bully pushing his way to the front of the dinner queue, his behaviour ignored by staff because he is too belligerent to bother with and accepted by other pupils because he has tough mates watching his back.
I'm not suggesting Maths shouldn't be taught, but I would really like to know when it gained a pre-eminent position in education and why people have accepted this without question for so long?

[OBonio]

Maths can be applied to most everyday lives I think and I certainly use it in my job. It's the application of maths to solve a solution that should be the real emphasis as opposed to the blatant regurgitation of Pythagoras that I was taught (hey, it was a GCSE... differentiation and integration was A-Level!!).

I think it is taught prominently as it is used in all areas of science and can be applied to other disciplines like woodwork and even home economics (convert from degrees F to degrees C for instance).

[jake-the-peg]

I agree that many people will never need Maths (as opposed to arithmatic) but it's absolutely essential for Science and Technology so it needs to be taught to support these subjects.

There is an exception to this - statistics. We are bombarded by these every day and without a grasp of statistics you're going to be hard pushed to see when they are meaningful, without that how do you make a decision.

Say you're a local government minister in charge of education (but you didn't do maths). The average student in your area gets 5 GCSEs. Is that a problem? Should you ask what the standard deviation is? Would that help? Was that average a mean or a median average ?

Hell just make a decision based on gut feeling!

If you want to ditch something from the curriculum ditch RE - if parents want their children to learn superstitious ritual let them teach it themselves!

[Drusilla]

I agree with you OBonio and think you emphasise my point that Maths could be taught as a part of other subjects, rather than dominating the everyday timetable as a subject in its own right.

[Drusilla]

Good point jake-the-peg, but are you telling me that local government decisions are not based on gut feeling or political bias, regardless of statistical evidence.:-)

[jake-the-peg]

I wish I was!

The alarmingly high degree of scientific and mathematical illiteracy (sic) means that this is all to often what happens.

From what I'm seeing with my kids the maths that's being taught up to GCSE is predominantly real world maths like statistics, graphs, problem solving etc. although there is a certain amount of other stuff.

Personally I think a bit of formal logic should be taught so that the next time a politician says "If you're not with me you're against me" everybody would turn around and say "You know that's a false dichotomy don't you?"

[OBonio]

jake makes a good point there. All these adverts promising to save you money if you take out a huge loan to cover all your debts.... yup, you pay less money a month, but you pay for longer... and some of those APRs!!! Outrageous. Still, people fall for it obviously.

*** goes off to look up dichotomy ***

[Drusilla]

The debt issue is another good point. If education is supposed to be a preparation for life, do you think Maths lessons should concentrate more on interest rates, APR's and the overall cost of debts and mortgages.?
Unfortunately, I only have my own knowledge of Maths teaching from my GCSE's in the 80's and I rarely saw the relevence to my own life. My 9 year old hates Maths, while my 6 year old views it as puzzle fun, neither of which fills me with hope for their futures in this subject.

[gary baldy]

I absolutely DESPISED maths at school and insisted that i would never ever need it in later life despite what teachers said. I was proved absolutely right in later life until i did my teacher training.
You need your maths gsce to become a teacher (needless to say i didnt have it).
Anyway i had to do my maths gsce at nightschool and with 10 years life experience under my belt i can tell you i hated maths as much then as i had when i was at school.
I still insisted that i had no use for it (and i could speak from experience this time) and even though i did really well in my gcse i still stand by what i said. Since getting my gcse at the age of 29 i still have never ever used what i learnt in my every day life!
I believe some people are 'maths people' and others are not.

[Coobeastie]

I think Drusilla has a good point. Maths should concentrate on things that will affect people once they are out in the real world. Its a fat load of good knowing how to work out the angles in a triangle if you then go an get stiched up whilst getting a loan, mortgage etc.

Maybe seperate lessons on life skills would be a good idea where you can be taught about pensions, insurance, hpi schemes etc.

[gary baldy]

Does anyone remember Base? you know base 1 base2 etc?
What the **** was that all about? I dont even think mathematicians have any use for it never mind 16 year old kids!
I learnt more about maths within a week of working behind a bar than i did in 11 years of school.

[shaneystar2]

I am with gary baldy on this. I loathed and detested maths at school. I was fine with the basics ,addition etc but as soon as I went to senior school and a teacher started to write x over y plus z squared on the board ,I lost the plot completely. I can remember getting a 5% mark for a geometry paper, and only got that because according to the teacher "It was beautifully drawn dear..but it's a complete load of rubbish " !
I agree maths must be taught to apply to other subjects but I also think if a student has no aptitude for the subject and are not interested in using it in a career ,then once they have grasped the basics it could be dropped for them to concentrate on something they do like and want to do and have an aptitude for.
Having waffled on about a subject I hated at school I will say that in everyday working life I had to use maths and could add up in my head a damn sight quicker than some of the Saturday girls I had to work with who had to use a calculator to add up a couple of items.
I do think a bit of basic knowledge in how to manage finances is essential though, for young people today.This would be far more use to them than Pythagorus and his theorem.

[Clanad]

Except that with no exceptions, every other science is reduced to its basics in mathmatics. Gary baldy asks about base1, etc., yet he uses base 12 every time he looks at a clock or calendar. Even using his computer, he employs rather simple algorithms using only ones and zeros. Even though one might not be concious of the use of mathmatics in every day life, all of the GPS based sat/nav systems that are becoming ubiquitous are geometry/trigonometry based. We've had numerous debates on various threads concerning the size of the universe, for example. How would you demonstrate the ability to measure that size using only simple geometry?
My youngest daughter, a brilliant young lady (of course) in most respects , couldn't determine the total amount of flour required to double a recipe requiring 1 and two thirds cups...

[Drusilla]

I accept what you're saying Clanad, but I think you're missing my point. I think all the contributors have accepted Maths is present in everyday life, but for how many of us is this important.
We may use sat/nav, but who needs to know the ins and outs of it. The same applies with computers. I totally accept the clock argument, but weights and measures could easily be taught in domestic science, which has sadly been forced out of the curriculum in favour af a more desk based, non practical approach to food science. (Sorry, but I don't even know what they call it any more.)
It's my belief Maths has 'strong armed' its way to the front of the curriculum with insufficient justification. I do believe arithmetic is important, but not the acceptance that Maths requires a position equal to Language and Science in the National Curriculum.

[gary baldy]

Clanad
-i learnt to read a clock by being learnt how to tell the time and i learnt how to weigh things out by helping my mum - both long before i learnt base 1. Both of these i learnt irrespective of knowing maths (subconsious or not). Learnt behaviour and real life situations are much more useful than acres of theoratical goobledy gook (which is how i remember maths lessons)

[mimififi]

I think the reason maths is such a strong subject on the curriculum is because unlike more humanity based subjects, you either study math or you don't study math. If you miss a literacy lesson, you can still practice literacy skills in ANY of the other subject lessons. If you miss tech or even science at primary levels, you can easily make it up. However with math if you don't do any math lessons for a week with bakery and every day math aside, where exactly would you make it up? A good grounding is needed in math for every child to ensure that if they want to major in math they can, they all have the opportunity. However, if a child has had a chequered literacy past, but wants to major in Eng Lit, then they probably will be ok to do so provided they can read and I say that as An eng lit teacher.

Also, it is way more that the four basic operators that we use day to day, we use ratios like Billy-O and also simultaneous equations are used without you even realising it I suspect, yet if I sat you down and told you to work a page of ratios or a page of equations, you might be someone who would freak out. This freaking out is a result of math being pushed to the one or two periods a week inside a classroom yesteryear, instead of pushing it to the front of a curriculum where it can be met head on and embraced by more students and where the fear of math can be put to bed.

[mimififi]

Id also like to add that I have used trig before now to work out areas and shapes and stuff, algebra gets used by us all weekly, if not daily, percentages are another thing that we are all regularly manipulating, it's not just the four operators. The only thing that really get me puzzled out, and its probably due to me being absent or something when they were taught is fractions, in particularly multiplying and dividing esp top heavy fractions. I understnad the whole thing, but I do have to stop and think and get together my LCDs. A mental block I guess.

I do recognise Math for the beauty that it does have and the orderliness and the agreeable symetry that is nearly always present, even though my subject majors are English Lit, and Art History. Particularly during rennaissance times, math was deemed as an actual art and the works of several enlightenment artists contain mathematical conepts as part of their formular for beauty.....Just look at the mona lisa. Like all subjects, it will be what you make it, and you can either look for ways to love math, or you can hate it and be afraid of it.....

Although not strictly mathematical, merely logical, I'm also quite partial to a bit of jolly SuDoku.......I wish I had been taught math and science the way my kids are learning it instead of the way in which it was taught when I was a taschool......

:-)

[gary baldy]

I respect lots of things the United States has contributed to our cultural landscape but for crying out load its

MATHS with an 's'

not math!

[sudu]

i strongly agree with mimififi. i'm doing gcse maths at the moment (at school- i'm 16) and it really does have an impact on your other subjects- espeacially the sciences. maths has to be taught to support these subjects. all the things that are said above about some maths not being useful might be true but what if the child goes on to be an architect or similar? its much harder to pick up the necessary skills when you're 17 or 18 than if you're taught basic trigonometry etc age 13 or 14. also, i dont know about other schools, but we have been taught a little about interest rates etc and you learn more about that if you do economics or maths at a/as level. obviously not everyone will do these subjects but this stuff is taught. for as level i will be doing english lit history and french, so although i dont need maths i think you do benefit a lot from it. i'll also be doing chemistry and its absolutely essential to have maths. i know some of you will be saying well kids can get into that if they want but if maths isn't taught fully in the first place they won't have the oppurtunity to take it further. also, you need more maths skills in everyday life than adding, subtracting and the like, as mimififi said.

[shaneystar2]

Well it amazes me ..how on earth have I managed to get to the age of fifty eight without ever having had to resort to trigonometry ,algebraeic equations and geometry .I can add up, ,subtract,divide and multiply,tell the time and weigh out ingredients to cook ,measure stuff and control my finances.
I quite agree maths is needed to support other subjects..Sciences,medicine,architecture and so on.
But lets face it some people are just not mathematically minded and I'm one them.!! And anybody who can count can do Sudoko.
What always amuses me is my son, who managed to get straight A' s in maths at G.C.S.E and A level and asks me what, for example ,6x8 is or 7x9 is.Without his calculator he would be lost.We had to learn it all by rote and repetiton.
The only thing that confuses me these days is the metric system ..I am still thinking in old money on that one !!
I am still firmly in the days of yards, feet and inches ,rods,poles,furlongs,perches and chains. !!
See....I did learn something !

[Drusilla]

I appreciate all the thoughtful answers to my query and I'd just like to point out that at 35 I consider myself to have been taught MathS (For gary baldy) in a modern style.
Sadly, I'm still not convinced that Maths deserves a place alongside Language and Science and believe it should be given less time on the curriculum alongside History, Foreign Languages and the like.
I'm glad Maths has got some supporters though and even more surprised they didn't fill the page with unintelligable theorems in support of their answers.
Thanks again to you all for your replies.