How do you end up like these two monsters and how do we stop it?

[noxlumos]

Just read this heatbreaking report into the torture and murder of a little baby at the hands of his step father and mother. They have been sentenced fairly stiffly by current standards but how do people end up like that and how do we stop it happening?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/15122006/344/mother-j ailed-baby-s-death.html

[jonnythebosh]

In responce to the first part of the question, god knows, i just cannot comprehend why anybody would do this. Unfortunately this kind of thing is an all to regular occurance, and i don't think that it can be stopped. I don't know whether you can blame social services as their job is thankless and incredibly difficult, they are damned if they do intervene and damned if they don't. Its a fact that certain people should not be allowed to have children.

[whiffey]

Yes, it is horrific and tear-jerking. There is a gradual increase in evil in our society, it's not going to get any better. We can't stop it happening, but at least brutes such as these should be removed from society for a very very very long time.

So , sorry, my answer is - evil.

[joko]

what normal woman wouldn't rip the throat out of any man who hurt her child?

I would fight lions for my kids!
I haven't any yet, but I know I would!


a sociopath turned psychopath.

probably evident from an early age too - you know, cruelty to animals and other kids, weird drawings, nightmares, odd behaviour etc etc - teachers and parents should look out for early warning signs and do something sooner.

he can rot in hell, and i hope that her majesty's inmates do us proud, and show him some real sadistic crap - as he obviously enjoys that kind of thing - but i hope the rest of her life is made a misery by guilt, remorse and fear of reprisals.

my blood is volcanic at the moment!

[Lonnie]

All I can say is when I read something like this, I get an infinate sadness, and rage, not just at the perpertrators, (If I got hold of them, i'd take them apart), but at the human race in general.

[Eve]

It's absolutely heartbreaking, I just cannot understand what would posses anyone to harm a child or stand by and watch.

I just don't know how we could stop it happening, if the only people a poor innocent child has to look after them are as evil as those in the article apart from more compulsory healthchecks or visits from health workers and such at various stages with concern raised for those who don't attend.

[Bazile]

Evil is the word , all right - thinking about the pain that poor innocent child must have suffered , sends shivers down my spine

This sort of brutality against a defenceless innocent person is quite frankly , unforgiveable

[jno]

I suppose drugs is a strong possibility; they relax inhibitions, and do so more with some people than others. Or maybe some sort of mental disorder, though presumably his lawyer would have raised this if it seemed possible. As for the woman, zero self-esteem may be involved. I don't understand any of it, and I'm not sure I want to.

I don't share the view that it would be nice if he was tortured in prison by other inmates, though. Torture just breeds torture, and as soon as you sit back and think that you'd like to prescribe it for people who've crossed you, you're halfway to Abu Ghraib.

[katangel26]

They both should have got longer sentences, if the 'step-dad' shows remorse (whether genuine or not!), he could be out in 9-10 odd years if not earlier. The so-called 'mother' should have got more than 7 years, she'll be out in 3 1/2 and thats not including an early release if or 'when' she gets parole. They killed a human being (ok, the mother didn't 'directly' but she had a huge part in his death so she might have well have) It's just wrong! Stronger sentences and not letting these so-called 'humans' breed again. If only hey!

[fat rascal]

where on earth were social services?

[joko]

i believe its actually the bible that states "an eye for an eye" ...

[enigma]

I am just at a loss for words after reading that. The poor little mite , may he rest in peace now after such brutality. What a shockingly disgusting waste of a precious young life at the hands of an evil tormentor and pity the little darling for being born to the poorest excuse for a human being ever. (I just can't bring myself to call her a mother as no mother by true definition could sit back and allow such devastating cruelty to take place with her child.) I just can not comprehend how a woman can carry a baby for nine months , worry over safety in the all important first trimester , hold her precious little baby in her arms after birth and spend thirteen months bonding with him , only to let him die at the hands of her evil partner. Being in fear of a partner is no excuse. Her priority was to protect her vulnerable child who was incapable of protecting himself. I still have tears stinging my eyes thinking about how that poor little boy must have suffered. I'm sorry but I am with Joko on this one - I hope that he gets a liberal dose of good old retribution in prison. May he suffer in excruciating agony for what he did to that little boy. No amount of citing depression , mental health issues etc can justify what he did to that poor baby. Forcing him to smoke cannabis ? Pulling him up by his ears ? Just when you think that people can't possibly sink to any further depths of depravity , you hear something else which makes your heart sink and despair with mankind. May he rot in hell and may the mother burn with shame every day for what she did - or more importantly did not. How she can look herself in the mirror every day I do not know but I do believe that she will suffer in prison too.

[noxlumos]

I'm usually anti- aggression and all for rehabilitation but this (and cases like it) really test my ability not to want to kick these two to death. I really am at a loss as to what we can do to prevent such things as the people who commit crimes like this are so out of whack that I fear nothing normal will ever reach them. I'm really distressed about it and it really does make me despair of humanity that in what is a very privileged country we still have people so eaten up by something, I don't even know what it is, that they do this to their child. It just defies belief.

[enigma]

Noxlumos , I think that what is most repellant to people about this story is the lack of involvement on the mother's part to protect her own child. It goes against the norm and challenges the very notion of the so called 'maternal instinct'. It is evident that this was severely lacking in this instance. I used to be in favour of rehabillitation for everyone and I will admit that I am all in favour of giving people a second chance which is only fair but sadly , the more I hear and see , I am now of the belief that some people can simply just not be rehabillitated because they are beyond help. This has been proven in cases with habitual offenders systematically repeating their behaviour upon release from prison. Some people should simply never be allowed to integrate back into society again and I am of the firm belief that this is one of those instances.

[noxlumos]

I know, this has made me kick my own principles straight in the teeth, because I genuinely do think most people can be rehabilitated, but these two? I really don't know and my personal revulsion for them knows no bounds at the moment. My mother stood by and let my father fracture my skull when I was about 6 amongst other things, and that took me years to forgive her for, but to allow this to happen to a little baby in arms is really not something I think is forgiveable, and I'm not buying the lack of self esteem on the mother's part as she was off enjoying herself with friends. People noticed this child and still nothing was done, no-one stepped in, and that's society's fault as well imho.

[Bazile]

enigma - you used the word trimester , so I am guessing that you are american - If I am correct do you have the equivalent of our social services , over there in the states , and if so would this behaviour likely to have been picked up at an early stage , by the authorities?

[enigma]

Oh Noxlumos , that is terrible. Obviously then due to your own personal experiences , you can look at this both subjectively and objectively. At the risk of sounding as if I am attacking your mother here - which I am not , I assure you - I just can't understand how women can sit back and allow their children to be subjected to such brutality. Do you think that it is through fear ? I just can't get my head round that because I can't imagine allowing a violent partner to hurt my kids. To abuse me would be bad enough but if he tried to harm my kids I believe in my heart that I could be capable of doing him real harm if it came to it as although I am not a violent person , I would do ANYTHING to protect my kids as they are too young to protect themselves and that is my role as a mother , to ensure the well being of my children. I'm trying not to judge women who do that because I am not with a violent partner so all I can do is try to empathise but as I said , it goes against the norm to take such a passive stance when your child is being subjected to utter cruelty. I wholeheartedly agree with you that self esteem issues do not wash here as she was socialising with friends whilst her child was being harmed. How anyone could leave their child in the 'care' of someone who had already harmed them is incomprehensible.

[enigma]

I can accept that in previous generations , leaving your husband to seek refuge elsewhere was not the done thing and many women stayed with violent partners through fear , both of what their partner would do to them if they left and also fear of how they would support their family if they made that move. However , with the availability of women's refuges and more support to victims of domestic violence , there is no excuse for staying with a violent partner. She could have left at any time and her first thoughts should have been getting her child to safety - not pouring drink down her throat with her friends. It sickens me to the pit of my stomach but what really irritates me is the nauseating hand-wringing which occurs after atrocities like this. The buck passing as various authorities , social work dept , police , family members , neighbours etc all blame each other and bandy about accusatory remarks. This is quickly followed by promises of 'lessons learned' as this will 'never be allowed to happen again.' Sadly it all to often does and seems to shock more each time. It's just a sad indictment of the society in which we live today. The thing with rehabillitation is , for it to work effectively , the individual/individuals have to want to be rehabillitated. I doubt very much if this would be applicable here. It breaks your heart.

[lindapinda]

To go back to your original question Nox...I don't think anyone can end up doing these vile things by any way or excuse other than they have it in their basic,original make up.They are bad..nothing else..no amount of enhancing substances,drink or drugs,could change you that much...to do that to a baby or child.

[enigma]

I am actually Scottish Bazile but the word trimester is often used here in the UK to refer to the three stages of pregnancy. Apologies if my answer was a bit misleading. I am therefore unaware of how the relevant child protection authorities in the US would have acted upon this. I do hope that one of our American ABers will pop in though to discuss this as I am curious to know too. I don't envy the role of a social worker though as they have a tremendously difficult job to do but I just despair when the so called lessons to be learned from cases like this never seem to get learned. It is heartbreaking to think of all the poor little tots who suffer at the hands of monsters - many of whom are their own parents and yet sadly , many go undetected because the little 'accidents' which they have are covered up , glossed over or monitored. It's only when it ends in a fatality that we often get to hear about it. Spare a thought for the poor kids who suffer in silence and despite services like Childline and Children 1st being in operation , many kids slip through the net because they are too frightened to come forward for fear of repercussions or are too young to voice their concerns - like the little baby in question.

[enigma]

We all come into the world as innocent babies though Lindapinda. Babies are not born evil and I guess it all comes down to the whole nature/nurture debate. What makes a person commit any act of such depravity ? Is it their biological make up , something which was pre determined or is it external influences , a product of their environment , upbringing etc. No-one is born evil so something obviously goes wrong somewhere along the way. What is not clear is whether it is a result of genetics and they were effectively a ticking timebomb or whether it is a result of their upbringing. If we can understand the cause of such behaviour then perhaps it is a step forward in trying to prevent further horror stories by identifying situations where children are likely to be at risk.