News4 mins ago
Size Of Families
Can someone tell me why people in this country&much of the western world have so many children if they're middle class&or wealthy? The reason I mention the money etc., is that I'm aware many people say they should be able to have as many kids as they like as they can "afford them"? But to my mind it's not just about the money, we live in a hugely over populated world, with this getting worse and all these people use resources, including as they grow and add yet more people. Also many of these same people are really hot on environmental issues&often campaign on them, yet they don't see the irony in this? Sting(to use a "celebrity", is one as between his 2 marriages, he has produced 6 kids! One reason I think must be ego, most of these people have large ego's& so want to carry on their genes! Nobody "needs" to have more than 2 children, no matter what others say, satisfies the so called "urge" to procreate and silences the "unfair to have an only child"(think that's crap anyway) On the other side of the coin, we all see many adverts, I'm sure on TV about starving children in Africa&other 3rd world countries, I have also read articles about various charities working in these places. What comes out to me is that this has gone on for so many years, people in truly awful circumstances, no hope of feeding themselves, never mind children and what to they do, not only bring a baby into this, they keep having more, how utterly selfish&cruel is this, knowing you have no way of giving them basic food, never mind strength/energy to procreate in first place?? I'm sure plenty will disagree, but that doesn't make me wrong or my opinion worthy of a hearing?!
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In the second part of your question you talk about the third world - much of the multiple births there comes from ignorance, lack of family planning, disapproval of family planning in the Catholic countries - as we did here in Victorian times, you have several children in the hope that one or two will survive. This is a completely different picture to your first part of the post - but not all well-off people have many children, many have one or two (or none).
I do agree with the overpopulation problem. And i am a hypocrite, as i have four children. I can only say i went by instinct and knew when i did or didn't want another one. I think fostering/adoption should be made much easier. It is difficult to tell people how many children they should have, but overpopulation is a massive problem.
Personal choice and the freedom to exercise it. You are of course right in that the worlds population is increasing at an alarming rate but until people can't get the petrol to drive to the supermarket, or the supermarket shelves are empty because there's not enough land to grow food, they simple cant see the cause and effect.
I am not sure you are right to say that having wealth or being middle class has any bearing on the number of children parents have. In fact many middle class adults are very carer minded and feel children can get in the way. And we see examples regularly of parents on benefits having large numbers of children. I know that's not the norm but I would guess poorer families are just as likely as middle class families to have children
People in the western world now have far LESS children than they used to have.
100 years ago it was common to have 5 or 6 or 7 children, partly because of lack of contraception, and partly because of the high rate of death amongst young children.
My grandparents had loads of brothers and sister.
My grandmother was one of 7 daughters, all named after flowers - Rose, Ivy, Iris, Myrtle, Daisy, Violet, May
100 years ago it was common to have 5 or 6 or 7 children, partly because of lack of contraception, and partly because of the high rate of death amongst young children.
My grandparents had loads of brothers and sister.
My grandmother was one of 7 daughters, all named after flowers - Rose, Ivy, Iris, Myrtle, Daisy, Violet, May
Where do you get your figures from? The average number of children per woman in the UK is around 2 and falling , see this link
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If you look at my link the number of children per woman in the UK is below the 'replacement level' which is the number needed to replace the deaths so the population in UK is falling. Without immigration we would soon be in the situation of there being too few children being born to sustain the population. This has already happened in Japan where the government are now having to encourage larger families by offering payments to have more babies.
I am one of two.
My brother has three kids.
I have two cats and no kids.
I know quite a few people (married, single and living together) who have no children. With some it has been a choice on their part and for others it has not.
I can't imagine how hard it is to want a child so very much but be unable to due to medical issues.
My brother has three kids.
I have two cats and no kids.
I know quite a few people (married, single and living together) who have no children. With some it has been a choice on their part and for others it has not.
I can't imagine how hard it is to want a child so very much but be unable to due to medical issues.
I come from a huge family and frankly I've never heard such a load of rude, self righteous, egotistical rubbish in my entire life. Why are you so bitter? Since most of your argument is either ill researched or innaccurate I'm forced to assume you have a personal axe to grind about large families. The rich shouldn't have them, the poor shouldn't have them, anyone with more than 2 children are egotistic, the 'urge' to procreate appears in quote marks to imply it's not real and you show no understanding of the situation in the third world whatsoever. Have you any children yourself may I ask?
Mother Earth has a wonderful way of sorting out these cyclical problems of overpopulation and resource shortages. So I urge everyone to sit back, breathe, and take the long view.
As ever we rich types in the western world are only ever two missed meals away from anarchy, so climate change / harvest failures will inevitably have their effect.
In addition the arrival of new and interesting diseases, and the increase of antibiotic resistance, will give us and our heirs an interesting if brief future.
So rather than slugging each other over numbers of babies, lets all relax and contemplate the big picture.
Or stock up on tinned food and ammo while the gettings good?
As ever we rich types in the western world are only ever two missed meals away from anarchy, so climate change / harvest failures will inevitably have their effect.
In addition the arrival of new and interesting diseases, and the increase of antibiotic resistance, will give us and our heirs an interesting if brief future.
So rather than slugging each other over numbers of babies, lets all relax and contemplate the big picture.
Or stock up on tinned food and ammo while the gettings good?
This is one of those classic 'dilemma' questions.
Nobody has the right to lecture any other person on how many children they should raise. Given what I've found out in my own ancestry, least of all me :)
On the other hand, if the world's population keeps on growing exponentially (which is what you get if a couple exceeds 2 and assuming they stay married for life) then some of your descendents are going to get drawn into world conflict, famine etc where the odds of the entire family line being wiped out are alarmingly high.
Technology keeps boosting crop yields year on year and we are keeping pace, for now. Measures to maintain that state of affairs can only help.
Nobody has the right to lecture any other person on how many children they should raise. Given what I've found out in my own ancestry, least of all me :)
On the other hand, if the world's population keeps on growing exponentially (which is what you get if a couple exceeds 2 and assuming they stay married for life) then some of your descendents are going to get drawn into world conflict, famine etc where the odds of the entire family line being wiped out are alarmingly high.
Technology keeps boosting crop yields year on year and we are keeping pace, for now. Measures to maintain that state of affairs can only help.
By the way, was there ever a Victorian era saying along the lines of "one for the Army and one for the Navy and one for the priesthood and one to look after me when I'm old"?
If not, then was there any concerted political movement at the time which was encouraging larger families or was it just that the empire was making us rich and big families are just the natural consequence of wealth?
If not, then was there any concerted political movement at the time which was encouraging larger families or was it just that the empire was making us rich and big families are just the natural consequence of wealth?
@pixie,
By 'wealth', I meant it in the sense that the Nation was wealthy, business was booming, job opportunities were always opening up so a low income family could have reasonable expectations of raising a dozen children because there was some certainty that they'd all slot into a job straight after they'd finished school.
The difference for higher wealth families is that they have higher career aspirations for their children and the expense of private primary & secondary education and then college, or university, undoubtedly leads to the choice to have fewer children.
I don't have detailed knowledge of the statistics either but have heard that there is a correlation between family income level and (reduced) family size and the pattern is repeated in every country as and when their national economy becomes more technologically advanced.
By 'wealth', I meant it in the sense that the Nation was wealthy, business was booming, job opportunities were always opening up so a low income family could have reasonable expectations of raising a dozen children because there was some certainty that they'd all slot into a job straight after they'd finished school.
The difference for higher wealth families is that they have higher career aspirations for their children and the expense of private primary & secondary education and then college, or university, undoubtedly leads to the choice to have fewer children.
I don't have detailed knowledge of the statistics either but have heard that there is a correlation between family income level and (reduced) family size and the pattern is repeated in every country as and when their national economy becomes more technologically advanced.
Sharingan, you are entitled to your opinion and as I clearly said, I was stating my opinion and it doesn't mean I'm wrong in that just because you don't like it! I don't think I especially have an "axe to grind" on it, yes I do have one child, but I also have a varied life experience so that comes into it, plus I'm an avid people watcher, have come across many different people in my time and have seen and heard much hypocrisy on reasons for wanting and having children.
The child I did have was disabled, I had lost my Mum at age 13 so had barely any family/support network around as a young Mother and it was very difficult. Of course that and other things have affected me, we are all a sum of our life experiences and I make no apology for that. Having said that, look at other people's attitudes and assumptions, I had numerous people tell me without being asked, that I should "have more children as i might get a normal one"!!! One of the main reasons I didn't want to have another child was that I knew I wouldn't cope very well with the one I had, due to the disability angle and that's how I am. I am someone who's never been won over by "cute babies", like many women are as I find babies/small children very tedious and in any case, they grow into large children and teenagers!
I grew in up in 1960's/70's very Catholic Ireland, where people just kept reproducing because that's what the non married, celibate and useless priests told them to do. Both my parents as was normal back then came from very poor farms, too many children they couldn't really feed or give a decent life to, they either left Ireland for work or went to Dublin, where my parents met. I was a sensitive soul even as a child and was affected by my parents tales of either walking miles to school with no shoes or 5+ having to share a bed&clothes. It doesn't take a psychologist to work out that my Mum dying at age 36, of cancer of the womb, having had her 5th child and then dying not long after, led to some of my views.
I still can't stand the so called celebrities banging on about the bloody environment, while adding more and more people to it, using it's resources, and lecturing everyone else. Some responses have mentioned the third world and it's massive poverty problems, again what does this tell you, that after all the Band Aid, Live Aid, Bill gates donating huge sums of money, putting programmes&clinics in, none of this seems to have changed or made things better and though it's not the total reason, one is that they keep churning out masses more mouths to feed, and it's not politically correct to talk about contraception etc!
I once had someone from Christian Aid knock on my door to pick up an envelope looking for money and i asked what their policy was on giving contraceptive and other family planning advice to these countries, the woman got very flustered and mumbled something about it wasn't their place to tell them what to do etc., so i said I don't want to give money and that's my reason, she scurried away quickly!!
Point of interest, I have 4 siblings (Mum would have felt obliged to have more if she hadn't got cancer young) 2 have had babies and had those adopted, 2 others have never had any and I only had 1, so this attitude may not be mine alone?
The child I did have was disabled, I had lost my Mum at age 13 so had barely any family/support network around as a young Mother and it was very difficult. Of course that and other things have affected me, we are all a sum of our life experiences and I make no apology for that. Having said that, look at other people's attitudes and assumptions, I had numerous people tell me without being asked, that I should "have more children as i might get a normal one"!!! One of the main reasons I didn't want to have another child was that I knew I wouldn't cope very well with the one I had, due to the disability angle and that's how I am. I am someone who's never been won over by "cute babies", like many women are as I find babies/small children very tedious and in any case, they grow into large children and teenagers!
I grew in up in 1960's/70's very Catholic Ireland, where people just kept reproducing because that's what the non married, celibate and useless priests told them to do. Both my parents as was normal back then came from very poor farms, too many children they couldn't really feed or give a decent life to, they either left Ireland for work or went to Dublin, where my parents met. I was a sensitive soul even as a child and was affected by my parents tales of either walking miles to school with no shoes or 5+ having to share a bed&clothes. It doesn't take a psychologist to work out that my Mum dying at age 36, of cancer of the womb, having had her 5th child and then dying not long after, led to some of my views.
I still can't stand the so called celebrities banging on about the bloody environment, while adding more and more people to it, using it's resources, and lecturing everyone else. Some responses have mentioned the third world and it's massive poverty problems, again what does this tell you, that after all the Band Aid, Live Aid, Bill gates donating huge sums of money, putting programmes&clinics in, none of this seems to have changed or made things better and though it's not the total reason, one is that they keep churning out masses more mouths to feed, and it's not politically correct to talk about contraception etc!
I once had someone from Christian Aid knock on my door to pick up an envelope looking for money and i asked what their policy was on giving contraceptive and other family planning advice to these countries, the woman got very flustered and mumbled something about it wasn't their place to tell them what to do etc., so i said I don't want to give money and that's my reason, she scurried away quickly!!
Point of interest, I have 4 siblings (Mum would have felt obliged to have more if she hadn't got cancer young) 2 have had babies and had those adopted, 2 others have never had any and I only had 1, so this attitude may not be mine alone?
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