ChatterBank1 min ago
impeded access to home
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We moved about a year ago, and the seller of the house moved into the house next door that he had built. He owns the drive to access our house and his. We have right of way. We have a triple garage, after living here a few months, we began to realise he was not a nice person. Very confrontational. He blocked our access in with a fence then put commercial bollards right down the driveway so there was room for him to get through but now only room (after a 20 point turn) for us to get one car in, at a funny angle. It's being handled by a solicitor, but so far no positive feedback. (so slow) This man also lied on his sellers form, no neighbour disputes etc., - yeah right!! But surely even if he owns the right of way he cannot impede our access, do we not have right of way by neccessity. Waiting for deeds to be released from mortgage company. Really fed up wished we had never moved.
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From your first sentence, you say he owns the land of the drive, you (presumably) are the ones with the right of access over this land - this is at odds with your statement in the 3rd to last sentence.
If so. this is quite a common arrangement and there's nothing wrong with it legally. Your solicitor should have checked the legalities of this on your purchase and registered your title with the land registry. This 'Waiting for Deeds' business is humbug if that's what he's telling you. Deeds don't exist in modern land transfers and you (or your solicitor) can get a copy of your land title and the title plan (which should include a plan showing the land over which you have a right of access) for �4 at the LR website on demand - it takes 3 minutes. Then you can see what the width of this access land is, and what your rights are.
If the solicitor fouled it up, complain to the Partner in charge (at your solicitors), then the next step is to involve the Law Society.
If so. this is quite a common arrangement and there's nothing wrong with it legally. Your solicitor should have checked the legalities of this on your purchase and registered your title with the land registry. This 'Waiting for Deeds' business is humbug if that's what he's telling you. Deeds don't exist in modern land transfers and you (or your solicitor) can get a copy of your land title and the title plan (which should include a plan showing the land over which you have a right of access) for �4 at the LR website on demand - it takes 3 minutes. Then you can see what the width of this access land is, and what your rights are.
If the solicitor fouled it up, complain to the Partner in charge (at your solicitors), then the next step is to involve the Law Society.
Since you have an express grant of a right of way it would be helpful to know the exact terms of this to enable answers that are of use to you to be given. It is not necessary to wait for your deeds (deeds in any case have been done away with now) but simply go to this link http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/ where it will be set out in the Register and defined on the Plan (it will cost 2 x �3 to see and copy both). If you then set out the exact Register ROW words in a further post and a description of what is shown re the ROW on the Plan I am sure that you will receive helpful answers. For a further �6 you can see and copy your neighbour's details, which might be of help.
Focus on EASEMENTS and COVENANTS.
Easement = private right of access etc. Purchase deed should specify where it runs.
Covenant = obligation (positive or restrictive) binding oe landowner in favour of another nearby. Purchase deed should therefore also feature restrictive covenant prohibiting each party from blocking easement.
Easement = private right of access etc. Purchase deed should specify where it runs.
Covenant = obligation (positive or restrictive) binding oe landowner in favour of another nearby. Purchase deed should therefore also feature restrictive covenant prohibiting each party from blocking easement.
A right of way is a grant giving a right to pass over land by the owner of the freehold of that land. It can be for a limited time or in perpetuity. The grant may be subject to specified restrictions and conditions. In the subject matter it can only be between freeholder and freeholder. Overall it is subordinate to the law concerning rights of way which contains considerable detail about what can and what cannot be done by both parties.
Many thanks to all of you. I have a copy of the title and plan from the land registry, but the solicitor says they do not hold the full details. There are the usual statements "pass and repass" also in two places it states drive having a width of 14ft and then another stating 10ft. The plan is to scale and on that plan the drive measures 15ft. So waiting for the experts to call me back. We actually have from the guttering of our garage - now 9ft 2ins. The bollards serve no purpose at all other than to reduce amd impede our access, the drive is 15ft wide but with 14 metal bollards running almost down the middle, dividing it up. My actual point was, (not clearly put) in law regardless of width of drive can someone impede your access to your property, impound your car, and is there such a thing as right of way by neccessity. We have asked him to go into mediation to explain to us what is going on, and why has he sent us a bill for thousands of pounds asking us to pay for them, but no reply. We have spoke to our neighbours who also have had a problem with him, they say he is just obsessive about the driveway. They are holding a bunch of letters of complaints from him(not declared on the sellers form) Many thanks everyone, you might see me on "neighbours from hell" one day.
(1) Your entry on the Register at the Land Registry takes absolute priority over anything on your old deeds. If important matters have not been transferred from your old deeds to your Register this is very serious and should be taken up with the LR for correction without delay.
(2) Could you say exactly what it is you have a right to pass and repass over? (ie does the grant specify the drive in precise terms of width or length, or that part of the drive as delineated on the plan, or the whole drive including the bit your neighbour would drive over - please be precise</b).
(3) Am I right in thinking that this is your primary access to your property?
(4) Regarding your specific questions
(a) obviously the owner can stop you from going over land or a private road/driveway which you do not have a right to go over
(b) if the owner of the land can lay legal charges against you because you have been improperly using his land he take a lien on your car and not hand it back until they are paid
(c) there is no such thing as a right of way by neccessity
Have you been parking on the right of way?
(2) Could you say exactly what it is you have a right to pass and repass over? (ie does the grant specify the drive in precise terms of width or length, or that part of the drive as delineated on the plan, or the whole drive including the bit your neighbour would drive over - please be precise</b).
(3) Am I right in thinking that this is your primary access to your property?
(4) Regarding your specific questions
(a) obviously the owner can stop you from going over land or a private road/driveway which you do not have a right to go over
(b) if the owner of the land can lay legal charges against you because you have been improperly using his land he take a lien on your car and not hand it back until they are paid
(c) there is no such thing as a right of way by neccessity
Have you been parking on the right of way?
Going to come back later with the exact wording. But for now. It is our primary access to our property. We do have right of way. We have not parked on the drive as we have adequate parking in front of our house, other than one incident when he was having cables run to his house for the telephone, and our parking area was temporarily blocked by a BT lorry. We parked the car to one side, lots of room for anyone to pass (on the drive) assuming we lived in a give and take neighbourhood, he went beserk even though we could not access our house, he said it didn't matter and I should have parked out on the dual carriageway. He now objects to us stopping to open the garage door before backing the car into the garage, not that we can use it now with the bollards. (noone is trying to pass - he tracks everything on cctv camera) takes about 30 seconds in total to open door annd back up car. Anyway get back to you later with the EXACT wording. Many thanks. The deeper I get into this it seems we have a case against our solicitor that did the conveyancing. What do you think about the sellers form issue.
The sellers form relates to disputes that are associated solely with your property. The vendor is not required to enter disputes with the owners of other properties. Even then the disputes break down into two, the trivial, ie your child threw a ball into my garden last Wednesday, and the important, ie your fence is three feet inside my property.
With regard to anything other than your right of way, my advice, based upon my understanding of what you have written so far, is to keep your dispute simple in case you have to go legal. It is far, far, better to go to court with one straightforward point which you have a 99% chance of winning rather than a dozen slightly fudgy ones of which you could lose six or eight.
The target is to establish the maximum exact area over which you have a right of way, to consider whether the bollards can be turned to advantage, and to obtain the maximum area of right of way outside your garage for you to manoeuvre in. I look forward to learning the exact wording.
With regard to anything other than your right of way, my advice, based upon my understanding of what you have written so far, is to keep your dispute simple in case you have to go legal. It is far, far, better to go to court with one straightforward point which you have a 99% chance of winning rather than a dozen slightly fudgy ones of which you could lose six or eight.
The target is to establish the maximum exact area over which you have a right of way, to consider whether the bollards can be turned to advantage, and to obtain the maximum area of right of way outside your garage for you to manoeuvre in. I look forward to learning the exact wording.
Under decrption of the land and estate.
(a) The right of way with or without vehicles over and along the track 10 feet in width which track is shown coloured brown on the plan subject to the persons excercising this right contributing towards the maintenance and upkeep of the said track in accordance with their user thereof.
(b) The right to make up the said track to such a standard as may be required by the vendor or the owners or occupiers of the said numbers xx and xx XXXXX XXXXX the persons excercising this right making good all damage thereby occasioned.
Then under C charges register
"The grantors as Beneficial owners unto the Grantees full right and liberty for the Grantees and their successors in title the owners and occupiers for the time being of the Second lands or any part thereof and his or their respective servants and licencees at all times hereafter for all purposes connected with the use and enjoyment of the Second lands but not for any other purpose whatsoever by day or night with or without vehicles of any description and with or without animals to pass to or from the Second lands over that part of the First Lands having a width of fourteen feet shown for the purpose of identification only on the said plan and thereon crosshatched in black the points 'A' to 'B' on the said plan from and to the land shown edged green thereon"
(a) The right of way with or without vehicles over and along the track 10 feet in width which track is shown coloured brown on the plan subject to the persons excercising this right contributing towards the maintenance and upkeep of the said track in accordance with their user thereof.
(b) The right to make up the said track to such a standard as may be required by the vendor or the owners or occupiers of the said numbers xx and xx XXXXX XXXXX the persons excercising this right making good all damage thereby occasioned.
Then under C charges register
"The grantors as Beneficial owners unto the Grantees full right and liberty for the Grantees and their successors in title the owners and occupiers for the time being of the Second lands or any part thereof and his or their respective servants and licencees at all times hereafter for all purposes connected with the use and enjoyment of the Second lands but not for any other purpose whatsoever by day or night with or without vehicles of any description and with or without animals to pass to or from the Second lands over that part of the First Lands having a width of fourteen feet shown for the purpose of identification only on the said plan and thereon crosshatched in black the points 'A' to 'B' on the said plan from and to the land shown edged green thereon"
Also on the transfer.
(i) at all times and for all uses and reasonable purposes connected with the use of the property as a private dwelling to pass and re-pass with or without motor vehicles from and to the property over the northern accessawy subject to the transferee paying a fair proportion according to user of the cost of maintaining and repairing and renewing the Accessway such proportion to be determined in default of agreement by an independent qualified chartered surveyor to be appointed by the parties jointly or in default of agreement by the president for the time being of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors the decision of such surveyor being final and the cost of such surveyor being final and the cost of such surveyor being met equally by the parties.
(i) at all times and for all uses and reasonable purposes connected with the use of the property as a private dwelling to pass and re-pass with or without motor vehicles from and to the property over the northern accessawy subject to the transferee paying a fair proportion according to user of the cost of maintaining and repairing and renewing the Accessway such proportion to be determined in default of agreement by an independent qualified chartered surveyor to be appointed by the parties jointly or in default of agreement by the president for the time being of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors the decision of such surveyor being final and the cost of such surveyor being final and the cost of such surveyor being met equally by the parties.
Thanks. At first sight it appears that there are three different sections to your access
(a) a track 10 feet wide coloured brown on the Plan
(b) access over the First Lands to the land edged green via a strip 14 feet wide crosshatched in black between points A & B, and
(c) the northern accessway
Can you explain the relationship of these three to each other and to the basic problem for me, please?
(a) a track 10 feet wide coloured brown on the Plan
(b) access over the First Lands to the land edged green via a strip 14 feet wide crosshatched in black between points A & B, and
(c) the northern accessway
Can you explain the relationship of these three to each other and to the basic problem for me, please?
I'm sorry this is why I am so confused.
I have the title plan, I then have plan 1 and plan 2 which is part of the transfer.
Nothing is coloured - brown
Nothing is edged - green
Nothing is marked A - B
The northern accessway, is the right of way, our shared access.
There is cross hatching in black along the area I know as the shared drive. To scale 1:1250 transfers to 15ft.
There are a lot of other references to other title numbers 6 all together. I have looked at them and I can't see anything relevant. I believe they are mentioned because they are for the properties opposite, their owners have rights of way on foot.
I'll just plod on with my solicitor.
The letters my neighbour are holding (and the seller marked no on the sellers form that he had never written to complain) are all in reference to the useage of the drive, so yes surely that is relevant to my property. It would have alerted me to a problem if he had stated yes, and explained.
But many many thanks, if any of the above makes sense to you then I'd like to hear more. thanks for your time.
I have the title plan, I then have plan 1 and plan 2 which is part of the transfer.
Nothing is coloured - brown
Nothing is edged - green
Nothing is marked A - B
The northern accessway, is the right of way, our shared access.
There is cross hatching in black along the area I know as the shared drive. To scale 1:1250 transfers to 15ft.
There are a lot of other references to other title numbers 6 all together. I have looked at them and I can't see anything relevant. I believe they are mentioned because they are for the properties opposite, their owners have rights of way on foot.
I'll just plod on with my solicitor.
The letters my neighbour are holding (and the seller marked no on the sellers form that he had never written to complain) are all in reference to the useage of the drive, so yes surely that is relevant to my property. It would have alerted me to a problem if he had stated yes, and explained.
But many many thanks, if any of the above makes sense to you then I'd like to hear more. thanks for your time.
OK. Regret the necessity to ask questions but the detail is vital. The law regarding ROW's goes back a very long way - in fact it was first written down in the 1200's and there have been many amendments and much case law since.
So the Northern Access is your ROW, and all of the words relating to it you have given above. Now for the difficult bit - what you have is a right to pass over the Northern Access, but you do not own it in any way at all, you cannot use it in any way that might suggest that you are excercising a freehold right and you have no additional rights other than those conferred by law which are not many. The width may be 14 or 15 feet but you are not entitled to demand to use the full width and so long as you can get up and down it anywhere within the 14 0r 15 feet and generally pass over it your entitlement is fulfilled. You can get a car up and down in the 9 feet or so which your opponent has restricted you to, and it is the aspect of ROW rights which I have just stated that your opponent is relying on, and he is quite likely to succeed if shove comes to push.
To grasp this basic understanding is absolutely vital, so in this post I will not deal with other important matters which arise until we have cleared this point. Please fire away with any questions.
So the Northern Access is your ROW, and all of the words relating to it you have given above. Now for the difficult bit - what you have is a right to pass over the Northern Access, but you do not own it in any way at all, you cannot use it in any way that might suggest that you are excercising a freehold right and you have no additional rights other than those conferred by law which are not many. The width may be 14 or 15 feet but you are not entitled to demand to use the full width and so long as you can get up and down it anywhere within the 14 0r 15 feet and generally pass over it your entitlement is fulfilled. You can get a car up and down in the 9 feet or so which your opponent has restricted you to, and it is the aspect of ROW rights which I have just stated that your opponent is relying on, and he is quite likely to succeed if shove comes to push.
To grasp this basic understanding is absolutely vital, so in this post I will not deal with other important matters which arise until we have cleared this point. Please fire away with any questions.
Many thanks for the clarification.
we are completely aware we do not own it, and that the northern access way is our ROW.
So as I understand it, even though the drive is 14ft plus, I only have rights over 10ft of it to pass and re-pass only. Not even stop and open the garage he sold us. How does that work with the transfer "at all times and for all uses and reasonable purposes connected with the property" I assume that is just relevant to pass and re-pass too.
Once again many thanks, I can't believe that our solicitor did not pick this up.
we are completely aware we do not own it, and that the northern access way is our ROW.
So as I understand it, even though the drive is 14ft plus, I only have rights over 10ft of it to pass and re-pass only. Not even stop and open the garage he sold us. How does that work with the transfer "at all times and for all uses and reasonable purposes connected with the property" I assume that is just relevant to pass and re-pass too.
Once again many thanks, I can't believe that our solicitor did not pick this up.
Your second paragraph is substantially correct. You seem to have a thoroughly lousy solicitor, there are many more of them than there are decent one's. Most do not understand ROW's. You should never have been allowed to purchase that property without the difficulty of a ROW access being explained to you - if we are consulted we always advise people not to involve themselves in what in 7 out of 10 cases becomes a miserable mess.
You really should go through your copy of your Register entry at the Land Registry and line out all of the stuff that is not relevant (this really should have been done by your solicitor at the time of purchase) and then instruct your solicitor to negotiate with The LR for it's removal from your Register. When you come to sell, if a potential purchaser has a more aware solicitor you will lose a sale with so much rubbish in. For the same reason you should also revise your access details at the LR, as I suspect that the bollards will become a permanent feature.
Regarding the bollards I assume that you are the only one's using your side. I cannot think of a reason why you should be asked to pay for them at all, let alone �1000, but have you thought of making a counter offer to pay �1000 for the bollards and the freehold of the land your side of them? I know that in reality the land may be worth only �150, but it would be worth the extra to you to get rid of your opponent and bring everything under your control.
You really should go through your copy of your Register entry at the Land Registry and line out all of the stuff that is not relevant (this really should have been done by your solicitor at the time of purchase) and then instruct your solicitor to negotiate with The LR for it's removal from your Register. When you come to sell, if a potential purchaser has a more aware solicitor you will lose a sale with so much rubbish in. For the same reason you should also revise your access details at the LR, as I suspect that the bollards will become a permanent feature.
Regarding the bollards I assume that you are the only one's using your side. I cannot think of a reason why you should be asked to pay for them at all, let alone �1000, but have you thought of making a counter offer to pay �1000 for the bollards and the freehold of the land your side of them? I know that in reality the land may be worth only �150, but it would be worth the extra to you to get rid of your opponent and bring everything under your control.
Hello. Just looked in to see how your thread is doing and noticed that some words are missing from one of my posts above - the one with the dense type. I had typed the answer out then pressed the submit button and Answerbank sent it into space and I had to do it again, hence the mess up. What I originally said was "There is no such thing as a right of way of necessity applicable to this matter. A necessity ROW comes into play where land is landlocked, and that is not here".
We did not go into your garage problem in detail, but if you would like to I really would have to see a rough plan to be able to be specific. If you would like to continue are you able to do a rough sketch showing the garage and entrance, the fence, the start of the bollards and the original (unfenced, unbollarded) full width of the ROW?
We did not go into your garage problem in detail, but if you would like to I really would have to see a rough plan to be able to be specific. If you would like to continue are you able to do a rough sketch showing the garage and entrance, the fence, the start of the bollards and the original (unfenced, unbollarded) full width of the ROW?
Yes, once again many thanks. I can get a sketch done, hopefully tomorrow night. How do I get the information to you.The price he is demanding is �5000 not �1000. The man is not communicatiog to us other than miserable demanding letters. We tried to go into mediation, but no luck. Our neighbours the other side tried to buy some land off him, but he doesn't respond. Since moving here I have found out he has done similar things to others. He is expert at it, and knows his stuff. That is why I wondered if I had an ace up my sleeve with the sellers form, maybe to negotiate with. Is there a time limit on any comeback on my conveyance solicitor.
many thanks
many thanks
Can we leave the letters and conveyance solicitor until later, please, as I would first like to clear up your ROW and garage entrance. Your sketch will be of great assistance, and I suggest that you scan it into My Pictures and then go to www.photobucket.com and register with them. Then upload the sketch from my pictures to photobucket, and you will find it as a large thumbnail at the bottom of the photobucket page together with three links. Copy the link with URL against it and paste it here and I will be able to see it!! A lot of words but all very easy you will find.
Additionally
(1) I have assumed that you are the first owner of this property. Is this correct?
(2) When did you purchase?
(3) When did the fence etc start to arrive?
(4) Did you purchase from your neighbour personally or through a company he controls?
(5) Was there some specific action that caused the fence etc (Don't worry if it was something you did knowing it would irritate him, just say)
Additionally
(1) I have assumed that you are the first owner of this property. Is this correct?
(2) When did you purchase?
(3) When did the fence etc start to arrive?
(4) Did you purchase from your neighbour personally or through a company he controls?
(5) Was there some specific action that caused the fence etc (Don't worry if it was something you did knowing it would irritate him, just say)
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