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Is Islam A Threat To The West?
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A question primarily addressed to you, Ichkeria.
By the way, I use the term "threat" in its broadest meaning, not in the limited sense of physical harm. I believe that the incidence of rape and the number of terrorist acts will increase as the Muslim population of Europe expands, but even if neither of these thing should turn out to be true many of our traditional values would, nonetheless, be threatened, most notably freedom of speech. To put it another way, whether 9/11 happened or not, or whether ISIS existed or not, is irrelevant to my argument.
Short preamble. Firstly please note that the question is not synonymous with "Are all Muslims living in the West a threat to the rest of us?" to which the answer is obviously "No". Secondly take the concept of a "Muslim Community" which has "special needs" that local and national governments must understand and to some degree accommodate . This crude generalisation is used all the time by the multiculturalists and the media as I'm sure you've all noticed, so you won't mind, I hope, if I use it too. I 'm trying to pre-empt the silly "tarring all with the same brush" responses from people who can't address the substantive point being made.
My answer to my own question is "Yes". My reason is that Islam as an ideology is incompatible with Western democracy and Western concepts of equality, and that the larger the Muslim community grows and the more self-confidant that community becomes the more conflict will develop between our vision and its.
I'll support my answer with just a few things I believe to be facts about Islam and its teaching:
Islam is not just a religion: it is a self-contained system of religion, law and governance.
This total system (the Sharia) is derived from God and any man-made law which conflicts with it is illegitimate.
It is God's will that the whole world submits to the Sharia.
The Sharia accords different (lesser) rights to non-Muslims from those accorded to Muslims.
A woman under Sharia is inferior to a man.
The Sharia forbids criticism of Islam or its Prophet.
The penal code of the Sharia is barbarous.
Many Muslims will threaten or use violence if they believe the honour of their religion has been impugned.
Now all of this could be true, of course, without the answer to my question necessarily being a "Yes". But a "No" vote would require a particular set of circumstances to pertain. One of those, for instance, would be that the majority of contemporary Muslims (at least in the West) no longer believed in the main tenets of Islam in a literal sense, and that they subscribed broadly to the same values as their non-Muslim neighbours. But I can't see that that is the case. In fact, the more conservative interpretations of Islam would seem to be on the increase. For instance, how many hijabs did you see at an English university twenty years ago?
I haven't yet offered proof of any of my assertions, but welcome criticism of any of my statements.
To sum up my view, I think Islam is a threat to the West because:
A community of people who believe in the version of Islam I've described in my bullet points will, at the very best, be a source of friction in society as Sharia and local norms collide.
Such a community does exist in every Western society (including Australia and New Zealand).
These Muslim communities already punch well above their weight in their demands for special treatment and their ability to wring concessions to their sensitivities.
Despite their low numbers they have already successfully muzzled the media in the cases of the Danish cartoons and Charlie Hebdo.
The larger the Muslim community becomes the more demands will be made, the more privileges will be granted and the more criticism of Islam will be suppressed.
By the way, I use the term "threat" in its broadest meaning, not in the limited sense of physical harm. I believe that the incidence of rape and the number of terrorist acts will increase as the Muslim population of Europe expands, but even if neither of these thing should turn out to be true many of our traditional values would, nonetheless, be threatened, most notably freedom of speech. To put it another way, whether 9/11 happened or not, or whether ISIS existed or not, is irrelevant to my argument.
Short preamble. Firstly please note that the question is not synonymous with "Are all Muslims living in the West a threat to the rest of us?" to which the answer is obviously "No". Secondly take the concept of a "Muslim Community" which has "special needs" that local and national governments must understand and to some degree accommodate . This crude generalisation is used all the time by the multiculturalists and the media as I'm sure you've all noticed, so you won't mind, I hope, if I use it too. I 'm trying to pre-empt the silly "tarring all with the same brush" responses from people who can't address the substantive point being made.
My answer to my own question is "Yes". My reason is that Islam as an ideology is incompatible with Western democracy and Western concepts of equality, and that the larger the Muslim community grows and the more self-confidant that community becomes the more conflict will develop between our vision and its.
I'll support my answer with just a few things I believe to be facts about Islam and its teaching:
Islam is not just a religion: it is a self-contained system of religion, law and governance.
This total system (the Sharia) is derived from God and any man-made law which conflicts with it is illegitimate.
It is God's will that the whole world submits to the Sharia.
The Sharia accords different (lesser) rights to non-Muslims from those accorded to Muslims.
A woman under Sharia is inferior to a man.
The Sharia forbids criticism of Islam or its Prophet.
The penal code of the Sharia is barbarous.
Many Muslims will threaten or use violence if they believe the honour of their religion has been impugned.
Now all of this could be true, of course, without the answer to my question necessarily being a "Yes". But a "No" vote would require a particular set of circumstances to pertain. One of those, for instance, would be that the majority of contemporary Muslims (at least in the West) no longer believed in the main tenets of Islam in a literal sense, and that they subscribed broadly to the same values as their non-Muslim neighbours. But I can't see that that is the case. In fact, the more conservative interpretations of Islam would seem to be on the increase. For instance, how many hijabs did you see at an English university twenty years ago?
I haven't yet offered proof of any of my assertions, but welcome criticism of any of my statements.
To sum up my view, I think Islam is a threat to the West because:
A community of people who believe in the version of Islam I've described in my bullet points will, at the very best, be a source of friction in society as Sharia and local norms collide.
Such a community does exist in every Western society (including Australia and New Zealand).
These Muslim communities already punch well above their weight in their demands for special treatment and their ability to wring concessions to their sensitivities.
Despite their low numbers they have already successfully muzzled the media in the cases of the Danish cartoons and Charlie Hebdo.
The larger the Muslim community becomes the more demands will be made, the more privileges will be granted and the more criticism of Islam will be suppressed.
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Wow yet another topic about Islam and all for little moi.
I'm touched. Unfortunately as I already explained it's not a subject I can get greatly worked up about. I suspect 'the west' can more than cope. And as I explained on the other thread, even if all this stuff is true Tonmy Robinson, the subject of the station, is not going to stop it in its tracks
I'm sure others will take up the cudgels here as they always do
I'm touched. Unfortunately as I already explained it's not a subject I can get greatly worked up about. I suspect 'the west' can more than cope. And as I explained on the other thread, even if all this stuff is true Tonmy Robinson, the subject of the station, is not going to stop it in its tracks
I'm sure others will take up the cudgels here as they always do
Itchie you are honoured - yes a brief letter-ette all directed at you !
Thank God he didnt expand his argument ....
//To put it another way, whether 9/11 happened or not, or whether ISIS exists or not, is irrelevant to my argument.//
actually the two events are completely relevant.
in that if they had NOT occurred no one would be writing about Islam
but they did and everyone is
ergo one can argue they are central to the argument
the violence I mean so then going down
// they have already successfully muzzled the media in the cases of the Danish cartoons and Charlie Hebdo. //
not so much muzzled as ... dead.
what does Bataclan teach us ? well if you lie down and wait you will get shot and so it would be better to react to people toting kalashnikovs - but surely we knew that after the eurotrain incident ?
Thank God he didnt expand his argument ....
//To put it another way, whether 9/11 happened or not, or whether ISIS exists or not, is irrelevant to my argument.//
actually the two events are completely relevant.
in that if they had NOT occurred no one would be writing about Islam
but they did and everyone is
ergo one can argue they are central to the argument
the violence I mean so then going down
// they have already successfully muzzled the media in the cases of the Danish cartoons and Charlie Hebdo. //
not so much muzzled as ... dead.
what does Bataclan teach us ? well if you lie down and wait you will get shot and so it would be better to react to people toting kalashnikovs - but surely we knew that after the eurotrain incident ?
I couldn't follow all of your arguments / logic v_e (not for the first time). But one paragraph I agree with is :
My answer to my own question is "Yes". My reason is that Islam as an ideology is incompatible with Western democracy and Western concepts of equality, and that the larger the Muslim community grows and the more self-confidant that community becomes the more conflict will develop between our vision and its.
My answer to my own question is "Yes". My reason is that Islam as an ideology is incompatible with Western democracy and Western concepts of equality, and that the larger the Muslim community grows and the more self-confidant that community becomes the more conflict will develop between our vision and its.
A contender for the longest OP but there again it is a question that could very easily be answered with enough depth to write a book!
In the Pegida UK thread Naomi described in detail the multitude of threats posed by ISIL.
The continued international response and the clear sharing of intelligence between countries is paramount.
Oh and we don't require hundreds more mosques being built thanks to the Saudis!
v_e - I think you answered your own OP adequately!
In the Pegida UK thread Naomi described in detail the multitude of threats posed by ISIL.
The continued international response and the clear sharing of intelligence between countries is paramount.
Oh and we don't require hundreds more mosques being built thanks to the Saudis!
v_e - I think you answered your own OP adequately!
The perverted Wahhabist/Salafist interpretation of Islam is a threat to the West.
"whether 9/11 happened or not, or whether ISIS exists or not, is irrelevant to my argument", which conveniently ignores a main source of this 'Islamic' threat you see: the mass exporting of the Wahhabi/Salafist perversion of the Quran by Saudi Arabia for over the last 70 years. (under American Protectorate patronage)
Until this exporting of militant Islam is stopped and the damage done addressed, escalation is the probable outcome.
Strange a muslim like this never features prominently in Western MSM , when said West alleges to be seeking solutions:
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjTnrcNHZyk
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOQGOaNvLSU
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68V44Jgl60g
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8
"whether 9/11 happened or not, or whether ISIS exists or not, is irrelevant to my argument", which conveniently ignores a main source of this 'Islamic' threat you see: the mass exporting of the Wahhabi/Salafist perversion of the Quran by Saudi Arabia for over the last 70 years. (under American Protectorate patronage)
Until this exporting of militant Islam is stopped and the damage done addressed, escalation is the probable outcome.
Strange a muslim like this never features prominently in Western MSM , when said West alleges to be seeking solutions:
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjTnrcNHZyk
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOQGOaNvLSU
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68V44Jgl60g
htt ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8
Whether or not Islam is (or will be) a threat to the West is still an assumption but west has already been a threat to so many Islamic countries in the past and present. They have either directly invaded many or have sent in the mercenaries to topple the people who did not listen to them. What else?
By the way, where I do agree with few of your bullet points about what you believe about Islam on the other hand rest of the points again show your perceived or websites based knowledge about Islam.
By the way, where I do agree with few of your bullet points about what you believe about Islam on the other hand rest of the points again show your perceived or websites based knowledge about Islam.
Erm...YES Islam is basically incompatible with Western Democracy and religious tolerance. Western values will eventually revolt against Muslim demands (despite their, Western, tolerance) if the scenario you postulate continues (and I do not see why it should not).
Charlie Hebdo has not been muzzled. Muslim communities punch above their weight due to our surprise and disbelief that pre-medieval beliefs can even be given credence in the modern world. Believe me when I say that politeness will cease to prevail, please.
Western attitudes are hardening as we begin to realise that Islam will not negotiate in any way. Islam wants a war. We don't, but we will meet the challenge.
Charlie Hebdo has not been muzzled. Muslim communities punch above their weight due to our surprise and disbelief that pre-medieval beliefs can even be given credence in the modern world. Believe me when I say that politeness will cease to prevail, please.
Western attitudes are hardening as we begin to realise that Islam will not negotiate in any way. Islam wants a war. We don't, but we will meet the challenge.
"In the Pegida UK thread Naomi described in detail the multitude of threats posed by ISIL.".
Indeed she did, AgChristie. But nobody on that thread who was laying into Robinson seemed willing to forgo his pleasure in berating "racism" in order to discuss ,even for a moment, Pergida's main concern - the Islamisation of Europe. On the same thread I tried to get Ichkeria to comment on the issue. His evasion is the reason I raised this post: I thought Ichkeria, who usually seems ready to defend his views quite forcefully, would be willing to consider my views and respond intelligently to them. As you see from his "answer", I have overestimated him.
Indeed she did, AgChristie. But nobody on that thread who was laying into Robinson seemed willing to forgo his pleasure in berating "racism" in order to discuss ,even for a moment, Pergida's main concern - the Islamisation of Europe. On the same thread I tried to get Ichkeria to comment on the issue. His evasion is the reason I raised this post: I thought Ichkeria, who usually seems ready to defend his views quite forcefully, would be willing to consider my views and respond intelligently to them. As you see from his "answer", I have overestimated him.
The tide will turn against Islam when the people of the West realise that it is just another form of extreme fascism. Unfortunately this will take way too long just as the threat of Nazi fascism was ignored for too long.
We need to stop pandering to religious beliefs in general and start loudly pointing out the disgusting aspects of all the Abrahamic philosophies.
We need to stop pandering to religious beliefs in general and start loudly pointing out the disgusting aspects of all the Abrahamic philosophies.
This is too broad of a question. Islam like all religions are built off of certain principles. Those principles do not support the capitalistic approach of the west. Additionally Islam seems to become a social and moral fabric in the East. They dress by it. They eat by it. They even openly pray about it. Now for that, the west would have to become open for such dialect which it is not. The question is not about threat. But the instinctive difference in ideologies.
Islam, like any major religion, is diverse and encompasses a wide range of beliefs and practices. It's important to avoid making blanket statements or generalizations. Islam itself is not inherently a threat to the West or any other region. However, there are complex dynamics and factors that can contribute to perceptions of threat or tension:
Misunderstanding: Lack of understanding about Islam can lead to misconceptions and stereotypes, fostering fear and suspicion.
Geopolitical Conflicts: Geopolitical tensions involving Muslim-majority countries have sometimes contributed to negative perceptions.
Terrorism: Acts of terrorism committed by individuals or groups claiming to represent Islam have led to concerns and fears.
Islamophobia: Discrimination and hatred towards Muslims (Islamophobia) can exacerbate tensions and foster an environment of mistrust.
Media Portrayal: Media portrayal can sometimes focus on negative aspects, influencing public perceptions.
Cultural Clash: Differences in cultural norms and values can lead to misunderstandings and tensions. (https://www.islamguide.eu/)
It's crucial to recognize that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful individuals who reject violence. Islam promotes values of compassion, justice, and respect for others. Muslim-majority countries are also culturally, socially, and politically diverse. Promoting understanding, engaging in respectful dialogue, and rejecting stereotypes can help build bridges and address concerns. It's essential to approach discussions about Islam with nuance and avoid making broad generalizations.
Misunderstanding: Lack of understanding about Islam can lead to misconceptions and stereotypes, fostering fear and suspicion.
Geopolitical Conflicts: Geopolitical tensions involving Muslim-majority countries have sometimes contributed to negative perceptions.
Terrorism: Acts of terrorism committed by individuals or groups claiming to represent Islam have led to concerns and fears.
Islamophobia: Discrimination and hatred towards Muslims (Islamophobia) can exacerbate tensions and foster an environment of mistrust.
Media Portrayal: Media portrayal can sometimes focus on negative aspects, influencing public perceptions.
Cultural Clash: Differences in cultural norms and values can lead to misunderstandings and tensions. (https://www.islamguide.eu/)
It's crucial to recognize that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful individuals who reject violence. Islam promotes values of compassion, justice, and respect for others. Muslim-majority countries are also culturally, socially, and politically diverse. Promoting understanding, engaging in respectful dialogue, and rejecting stereotypes can help build bridges and address concerns. It's essential to approach discussions about Islam with nuance and avoid making broad generalizations.
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