Suicide victims

[WildBergamot]

Am I right in thinking there was a time when suicide victims were not allowed to be buried in consecrated ground?

I recently discovered one of my ancestors committed suicide in 1861 (in Scotland) and wondered if he would have been buried in the churchyard, and if not, what would have happened to him?

[Lonnie]

I don't know about that, but there was a time when attempted suicides could theoretically be arrested and tried for attempted murder, (of themselves). maybe the two are linked.

[Drusilla1S]

Suicide was considered sinful and the victims of suicide were forbidden burial in consecrated ground. In medieval times the tradition was to bury such people at the crossroads leading out of town.

The recent film, Kingdom of Heaven, with Orlando Bloom, includes a scene where a female suicide victim is beheaded before burial at the crossroads. The scene was set in France, but is a reasonable example of the treatment meted out in such cases.

[Drusilla1S]

The book, History of Suicide-Voluntary Death in Western Culture by Georges Minois (Johns Hopkins Univ Press) traces attitudes towards suicide from the classical period through to the Enlightenment.

[dot.hawkes]

I do recall that suicide victims in more recent times, at least since the introduction of civil cemetaries (mid - late 1800s), were given burial in sections of the cemetary.

[SaxyJag]

Where people who have committed suicide are buried in churchyards, they're usually on the north side of the church, along with the murderers et al.

I'm not sure when secular cemeteries first appeared, but it would be a possibility.

[noxlumos]

There's the grave of a suicide in Ireland that's buried just outside the churchyard wall but that dates from the 1800's, so might be the same as your ancestor. This was a Catholic grave, is your's Catholic or some form of Protestantism as it may then differ perhaps?

[WildBergamot]

Thanks for all your answers.

It's nice to know he lived late enough not to have been buried at some anonymous crossroads, but probably did make it to the cemetry (even if it was the north wall).

Noxlumos, as far as I know, he was probably protestant (Church of Scotland), however, as his church was in the middle of Edinburgh, there would have been little space outside the churchyard wall. Nice suggestion though.

Thanks again.

[Octavius]

In the early years of Christianity, St Augustine (345-430 AD) pronounced suicide to be a 'mortal sin'. A century later, the Christian Church prohibited the saying of masses for the souls of those who died by suicide, and they were denied burial in hallowed ground. The last recorded 'unhallowed' burial of a suicide in Britain occurred as late as 1823.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/fcod/fcod11.htm

[jake-the-peg]

I'm afraid that time is not confined to history:

...

That suicide is unlawful is the teaching of Holy Scripture and of the Church, which condemns the act as a most atrocious crime and, in hatred of the sin and to arouse the horror of its children, denies the suicide Christian burial....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm

from the Catholic encyclopedia

[Octavius]

That would be the most conservative view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_suicide

The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that suicide may not always be fully conscious � and thus not one-hundred-percent morally culpable: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."

[jake-the-peg]

diminish the responsibility How very understanding of them!

"We're sorry your relative comitted suicide - they're either damned or mad!"

[WildBergamot]

I am so sorry for yor friend , In A Pickle.

The church has a lot to answer for. What kind of religion could be so unsymathetic towards someone whose circumstaces have become so desparate they feel they have to resort to suicide. It's not just the victim, but those that are left behind, who have to live with their church's attitude towards their unfortunate loved one.

Any church who lumps together "unbaptized children, suicides and lunatics" with murderers and rapists, and refuses to give them a dignified burial, is not one who preaches love and compassion.

In case you're interested, my ancestor slit his throat with a razor. I've never found out why he did it though.

Thanks for all your answers.

[Octavius]

I am not trying to defend the church and your points are noted, but as I said it is a conservative view still maintained by a minority. Even in Islam suicide is forbidden, but I can see that 'THE church' is an easier target.

Additonally yes JTP someone who commits suicide clearly has problems "of the mind" which I will not pretend to understand nor condemn.

In any event, if someone is so against the views and actions of THE church on this issue, why would they want to associate with it and be buried in it's consecrated ground? Why not just go up in smoke?

[WildBergamot]

Personally I don't associate myself with any church. However I can appreciate many people do, and that for them it is an incredibly important part of their lives.
Which is why It must be all the more difficult to be treated so unsympathetically when they find themselves in trouble, and that the family have even more heartache to deal with because of the church's attitude.
I don't agree that "someone who commits suicide clearly has problems of the mind", at least not always. I've no idea why my ancestor committed suicide, however it is possible he may have had money problems, he may have lost his job, or he may have lost a love one. Perhaps he was ill and in pain. There must be many reasons why someone feels they can't face the future. You can't can't always asume they have "problems of the mind".
However, this is my own personal view. I understand everyone has there own opinions (it would be a boring world if everyone thought the same way) and I would be the last person to condemn a person for their beliefs.

[Octavius]

WildBergamot, my uncle hung himself last year. He was not a madman or a lunatic, in fact he was a well regarded and liked professional member of the community in his home town. He was also a strong catholic and left behind 6 children and 21 grand children.

We don't really understand why he did it, but in doing so we all agree that he must have had a troubled mind and that is what I refer to.

Incidentally, he was given a full catholic burial in consecrated ground as he was so well respected by the community and the church.

[WildBergamot]

Octavius, I am so very sorry about your Uncle. You and your family must have been devastated. You must feel some reasurance that your church took a more relaxed attitude, and I sincerely hope they helped you through your difficult time.
As previously discussed it wasn't always so.

[Peter Pedant]

I am surprise that no-one has adverted to Londonderry's suicide in 1822, he was prime minister at the time

viscount castlereagh=lord londonderry

the common law finding of felo de se would mean that he would have to be buried at cross roads with a stake through his heart, so the coroners jury obligingly didnot find 'suicide'

I am glad to see that attitudes are changing. When a friend committed suicide in 1976, everything had to be secular. No priest RC or Protestant would go near it. I couldnt even get a mass said for the repose of his soul - which I would have thought was somewhat tortured.....I was reminded of Tess being unable to buryher child as he had not been christiened.

[spk]

I was educated in Ireland in a nunnery- left school only 10 years ago and we had it beaten into us from a young age that people who commit suicide would never get to heaven and their souls would wander the earth forever. Very disturbing teachings and certainly not my opinion on it but I just wanted to point out that sadly some things hadnt changed up until I left school. As a result I find suicides very difficult to get my head around and feel very sad for the family and friends that get left behind. I would hope that nobody would be denied burial because of it nowadays

[hundreddolla]

You want to be part of the club you gotta play by the rules.