satan

[Le Chat]

In a previous question posed by Stevie1time, which referred to selling one's soul to the devil........it got me wondering. In his answer to the post, Teddio tells us that Lucifer was only second in line to God, higher than angels etc etc.
In a previous question posed by Stevie1time, which referred to selling one's soul to the devil........it got me wondering. In his answer to the post, Teddio tells us that Lucifer was only second in line to God, higher than angels etc etc.
If this was so, then why did he go 'bad' ? If it is so fantastic, wonderful and beautiful in heaven, why would Lucifer want to throw a spanner in the works?
Christians spend all their earthly life trying to ensure their place in heaven for all the reasons above, so what was it about heaven that wasn't 'ultimate' enough for Lucifer?

[kempie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

[jno]

heaven is all very well when you're Number One and you make the rules. But with no hope of promotion, rebellion is the only way you can better yourself.

[naomi24]

Stranger still than heaven not being 'ultimate' enough for Lucifer is the fact that God supposedly made him along with everyone and everything else, so maybe there was some sort of design fault there.

[Le Chat]

Thank you for the link kempie.
It (to me) is just such a load of old tosh! He obviously didn't think his heavenly life was all taht were told it's cracked up to be, if he started a war against God!
I can't belive people think this stuff is actually true and I am incredibly broad minded.

[buuuuurhaaan]

satan told me to shag a bird...buuuuurhaaan. n shamim has egg nipples. buuuuurhaaan. apparently if u wana be a realy satan follower u actually have to have sex with a bird n rub shamims nipples. thank you buuuuurhaaan

[naomi24]

Oops. My mistake. I thought for a moment we may be having a half-sensible discussion here.

[Teddio]

How can a being, perfect in every way create a flawed creature like Lucifer? I don't accept the "free will" explanation

[naomi24]

Newsdesk "God was now free to create the Heaven he had always envisaged"? Does that mean he isn't all powerful then? If he wasn't free do to as he wanted before he ejected of the dissenters, he can't be, can he?

[Theland]

Yes He is all powerful, but has obviously limited His own abilities by giving His creatures free will.
He remains omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

[naomi24]

Ah, there's always a "but" isn't there? This sneaky fellow worms his way out of every awkward situation, doesn't he?

Well, if he did eject the dissenters, being all-knowing, he would have been aware of the problems he was creating when he first created these creatures, and when he gave them free will, so just what was his game - or his intention? A trouble maker of the first degree, in my opinion. I tell you, he's sitting up there watching everyone arguing and laughing his socks off at the havoc he's caused!

[Theland]

God knows the end from the beginning, but went ahead and created anyway. We may decide there was a better way for God to have planned his creation, and in doing so, criticise Him, but if I accept the reality of God, then I also accept that His ways are higher than my ways, and trust Him to ulimately bring about the perfection that glorifies Him, and us, for eternity.

[naomi24]

That's completely illogical. Surely if you think about it honestly, you have to ask "why?"

[Theland]

Why? We are back to free will. It seems to me, that gods' plan was to create us with free will, regardless of the mess we might make of that gift, so that ultimately, those who choose Him and His ways over self and our ways, will be the true expression of love that can be built into the body of Christ, the true church.

[naomi24]

It isn't us who have made the mess. He's made the mess by giviing us free will - and he did it knowing what would happen.

[jojojoanne]

and so................ to what extent is free will abused?

[Theland]

3 x j, Free will is abused whenever we make choices that are wrong in the eyes of God. Whenever put our own interests above the interests of others, that is an abuse of free will. The bible calls it "sin".
It is impossible for any of us to go through life without committing sin, so it is therefore impossible for us to live perfect lives, and God demands perfection. But, we can try, and in doing so, become better people than we were.

[naomi24]

But, Theland, what is the point of God demanding perfection when he already knows before we're born exactly what we're going to do? If he knows everything, then there's nothing we can do that will surprise him, disappoint him, or please him. He knows who's going to heaven before we start our lives, so why worry about it? There is no logic in it at all. He's just having a game with you.

[luna-tic]

I think I mentioned it once before on another thread, similar topic.
If God wanted us all to be righteous and follow in his golden footsteps then why create the bad within the good.
It would have saved him a lot of trouble and us a lot of pain.

[Theland]

What is illogical to us, is not so surprising when we are the created beings, asking the Creator to give an account of His methods.
Personally, I trust His wisdom, and see a world that is in dire need of getting to know Him.