Certified electrician? Help

[bricks]

I'm in the UK and I've just had a new kitchen fitted, looks great. Lots of new electric sockets and new ceiling lighting, plus 2 new 60Amp circuits for an oven and hob.
The fiitter is coming back next week to finish off, tiling and a few odd jobs.

Now I'm getting concerned that he's never mentioned anything about issuing a certificate for the electrics. Maybe he isn't a certified electrician, (he has done a professional job though). Asking whether or not he was a certified electrician wasn't something I thought about when we were choosing a fitter.

I there anywhere that I can find out if he's registered or something, And what if he isn't will all the units have to be pulled out from the wall for a proper inspection of the wiring by a qualified electrician????

Also he capped the gas pipe that went to our old gas cooker, do I need a CORGI certificate or something for that???

[LCDMAN]

Oh dear, certified electrician speaking, what a mess!

Kitchens (and bathrooms and outside areas) are "special locations" defined within Part P of the building regulations and all work in those areas must a) be notified to your Local Authority Building Control (LABC) dept and b) be carried out, tested and certified by "competent persons" with respect to both electrical installations and gas. In addition, the electrical work must be carried out to (and certified to be in compliance with) the standards defined in the latest 17th edition of the IEE wiring regulations, again by someone certified as competent to do so.

Sounds like you've employed a cowboy to me.

You need to ask him a) if he has notified the work to your local LABC, either directly or via his Part P "scheme provider" (NICEIC, ELECSA, and various others, who certify him and will deal with LABC on his behalf). If he cannot give satisfactory answers and provide you with electrical installation and final test certificates then you've just been robbed!

Without an LABC completion certificate for the work (which you will get by submitting his certificates to them) then you are going to have trouble selling in the future as you have nothing to say the work has been carried out to comply with building regulations and to the LABCs satisfaction.

[hairygrape]

Err, hold on there. I am a certified electrician too and I lecture in electrical installation and practice in FE college on this very subject amongst others. I am a Chartered Engineer and MIEE too and I write on these matters in technical journals.

There is a common misconception that Part P is mandatory ie a legal requirement. It is not. Whilst there is a recognised need for such work to be carried out by a competent person that is all that the regulations specify. There are far too many electricians out there nowadays who jump around shouting "Part P Regulations" and waving the book around claiming that this stuff is mandatory. The only thing it has done is too put extra money into the pockets of electricians and believe me, they're making a fortune as a consequence.

The only person who can check compliance with Part P is the building inspector. Don't be misled into thinking it can be done by an electrician.

I suggest you read the unbiased guide in the following link first before getting too alarmed;

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part_p:di y_electrical_work_and_the_law

LCDMAN's final paragraph is rubbish. Circumvent it by not telling the house purchaser when the kitchen was rewired. It's not illegal. There are hundreds of houses sold in the UK in this manner every week.

[LCDMAN]

And just where did I say Part P WAS a legal requirement.? I fully understand that 17th edition IEE regs are purely a guideline for best practice and not mandatory like the EAW Act is. The reason for Part P is evident - it stops unqualified people doing shoddy work . (or it should but I don't think any LABC has a clue about it in my experience!)

I stand by the comment that if you haven't involved LABC somewhere in the process, either through the installer or directly, then you haven't complied with Part P and left yourself open for future issues - you wont have any LABC completion certificate which a future sellers legal pack will require..

If the installer IS a "competent person" then he will be a member of a Part P scheme and notified the job to LABC via his scheme provider. Otherwise he should have notified the works to LABC directly . They will have wanted to inspect first fix if he isn't self-certifying (via his scheme). Either way it sounds like he hasn't involved LABC at all - which is PRECISELY why Part P exists.

And the link you quoted - I've posted it here a few times myself - is very comprehensive and useful and I think will re-iterate my points!

[buildersmate]

I'm afraid I find your answer misleading, Hairy. I broadly agree with LCDMAN.
What you fail to say (though your link does explain it) is that EITHER a qualified electrician is able to self-certify the work - in which case he gives the householder a certificate OR a Part P Building Regs is made, in which case a competent person may do the work in a kitchen and then the Building Inspector (or a person contracted by BC) comes and checks the work and issues the BC certificate.

LCDMAN's final paragraph is not rubbish - it is factually correct as solicitors are very sharp at checking this sort of BC non-compliance these days. Householders are finding all manner of issues with electrical work, lintels put in without proper calcus being done and a host of other DIY modifications. Your suggestion as to solve it is of course technically fraud - otr at least trying to gain pecuniary advantage.

[buildersmate]

Again, LCDMAN's comments appeared during my typing.

[LCDMAN]

As a minimum level of competence he should have correctly tested all his newly installed circuits and provided the customer with certificates.

[LCDMAN]

Hi BM, here again?

One other thing to note is that whoever does the inspection and signs the work off will want to see the installers test results for the new circuits as a minimum - he is unlikely to carry them out for himself. From what has been said so far sounds like the installer hasn't done any testing, so no IR or Zs for the inspector to see.

[LCDMAN]

Earning a fortune? I'd earn more sat on my arse in a warm college lecture room or writing BS for some nobby technical journal no doubt.

Any extra income has come from putting right ****-ups (some major and many dangerous) that cowboys and bloody DIYers have made!!

However, despite it's promise (and my defence of it's correct application) - unfortunately in practice all Part P has done is added another bloody level of bureaucracy for us working sparks and the sooner is it repealed and replaced with something more workable (and less of a money making scam for NICEIC and the like) the better!!

IMO Permits to work, like they have in the USA, would be better - any work needs a permit before you can start and only qualified people can apply for permits.

[lorri24601]

This thread has just reminded me lol,i had a kitchen fitted in 2003, they ( big national company that supplies and fits kitchens and bathrooms) said they would send someone to inspect and issue certificate when it was completed,as of today they have still not arrived,

[laptopsteve]

well (bricks) you must be scared out of your witts after that grilling of imfo although they both are technically correct and factual,
But to ease your mind it might be just a simple case of asking the sparky because he might just complete the works by doing the formalities after the job is complete. p.s. if he is an employee for a company and he is doing a cash job ie not paying tax then you are right to be concerned and it will come back to bite you if/when you sell your property.

[hairygrape]

bricks, at the end of the day, you can please yourself which advice you follow.

As far as the Legal Pack is concerned, don't take the tripe you've read above too literally. The seller's pack system is falling apart and even the government have acknowledged that they doubt it will continue for much longer. There's already much lobbying taking place for it's abolishment. Perhaps LCDMAN can foretell the future.

As far as gaining pecuniary advantage goes, no that's not correct. I've got personal knowledge of prioperties where a few thousand have been knocked off the selling price by the seller at the insistence of the buyer simply because there are no certificates for the work. That's not pecuniary advantage - that's pecuniary disadvantage. I suggest you find me a solicitor that will not agree that such a reduction is to the disadvantage of the buyer. It has to be to the buyers advantage. I've known sparks who have put a ring main in a kitchen for around a couple of grand whilst the buyer knocked five grand off the sellers price to do the work! Where's the BS now?

As for earning a fortune, you'd think you lot were walking around with holes in the @rses of your trousers the way you're talking. I earn just under �50 an hour in college sitting and standing and I can't think of a single spark who's passed through these doors that's now self-employed who earns less than I do. As for BS in technical journals, it's people like you that give the trade a bad name and demonstrate only too well that you're more interested in earning the cash than increasing your knowledge of the trade including legislation. Like it or not mate, someone taught you somewhere.

[hairygrape]

As has been said earlier, the Part P Scheme badly needs review and yes, there are better systems elsewhere in the world.

In the meantime, the UK contains a hell of lot electricians who baffle householders all over the country regarding the "legal requirements" of the scheme. You lot would have us believe that all electricians are as white as snow now that the scheme is in place. Hands up those that don't have a dodgy spark in your area who gives chapter and verse to householders regarding the "legal" requirements of Part P.

If the system is so watertight, tell me how I've got a recently built estate in this town where the houses were wired by electricians mates rather than electricians. The jobs were advertised in the local and national press and the only qualification was that the mate had to have been working for two years with a qualified spark. And yes, completion certificates have been issued for every property.

Isn't it odd how you can stand up and recount all about Part P yet you can't find a way of preventing this sort of thing happening. Part P is just a joke.

[raysparx1]

Also another way of getting around the work being "certifed" is to have what is known as a "periodic test and report" I have done these for sparks in the past and according to the wording it will certify that the wiring need not be checked again for 5 years, providing all is ok that is, the whole thing is a bloody mess and it will never be sorted untill wholesalers and the likes of B& Q Homenase etc, stop selling every item any peabrain can buy in order to reire an entire house, I packed in electrical contracting last year after being in the trade for 45 years, 28 of them self employed. the electrician doing your kitchen should not have touched the gas pipe,that was wrong, but even if he is not certified I would not worry too much if you want to sell, who can prove when work was done? the cable colours have changed, but they started to change before "part P" was begun.

[Disco Fever]

I agree Raysparx1, i'm a sparky myself who has spent most of the time carrying out work in the industrial and commercial sector but I did most of my training from 1984 to 1988 under the 16th edition regs. Ive been in B&Q where a supposed 'sparky' who works for B&Q has sold a new MCB board c/w breakers and tails to an old bloke who had just retired and needed to change his fuseboard to bring his house 'up to standard' as the B&Q bloke told him and he still told the old boy that it was easy to do just cut the seal off the main incoming fuse and then change the board, I nearly reported the bloke to the management but I bet he did it just to get the sale.

I am soon doing the 17th edition update as I did the 2391 Insection and Test course in 1999 so I have to do the long course to catch up but when I do carry out Period Inspection and Tests I still go over the top in adding extra earthing to make sure i'm doing enough even tho I need to do the update.

Ps how hard is it to do by the way???

[Disco Fever]

Hang on am I the only one to pick up on the 60 amp new circuits or is it 32 amp bricks???

And have you got a new MCB/RCD board yet??

[bricks]

Bricks here, I've just had a look at the circuit breaker box and there are two 40Amp breakers, one for the oven and one for the hob. He didn't put a new box in he used a coupe of spare places in an existing box.