What Does 'lawful Living Right' Mean?

[Retrochic]

We have come across a property for sale privately with land and a barn which has stables underneath and living accommodation above. In the description it states the barn has 'lawful living right' but is not a 'Barn Conversion'. I've emailed the owners for clarification but they are being shifty about the whole thing and a Google search of the term reveals nothing. The only thing they have said is its not eligible for Council Tax. Its a long way to go to visit and I just wondered if there was anyone who has come across this Term and what it means? Thanks

[Buenchico]

Disclaimer: I most definitely don't KNOW the answer here. I'm simply trying to SUGGEST what it MIGHT mean!

Under the Planning and Compensation Act 1991, local authorities can't take action for a breach of planning rules if a property has been used as a single dwelling house for more than 4 years without any such action being commenced.

So I'm guessing that the property owners are saying that it's not got planning permission but, because someone has lived there for more than 4 years already (without the local authority taking action for a breach of planning laws) there's now no need for planning permission anyway. (i.e. you can legally live in it without fear of problems from the Planning Inspectorate).

[Retrochic]

Thanks buenchico for your reply. Is this in the right section or should I have put it in law?

[Peter Pedant]

I think they may have made this up

email them and say you cant find its meaning

[Buenchico]

>>>Is this in the right section or should I have put it in law?

Either would do - but the fact that Google fails to come up with any references to the phrase clearly shows that it's not a wording actually used by the legal profession anyway.

[buildersmate]

Chris is correct about this.
The way around this is to apply to the planning authority for a certificate of lawfulness. Try Googling that and you will get a result.
I'd be asking the vendor why he hasn't done this already.
Be careful and discount the value of the barn conversion without it.

[jno]

does she live in a barn, methyl?

[Retrochic]

builders mate thankyou for the reply. This is not being marketed as a Barn for conversion, its actually 14 acres of land with a barn on it with 'lawful living right'. its priced at £300,000 which is pretty hefty for 14 acre of ag. land with a barn with no planning permission in Lincolnshire. i shall email them as you suggested and mention the certificate of lawfulness.

[buildersmate]

Ah, I see. I thought there was a property with land, and IN ADDITION, a barn which they are claiming has been occupied for more than four years. 14 acres of agricultural land is worth no more than £200k. You simply cannot assume that getting consent will be straightforward as planners hate extra dwellings being created in open countryside by these sort of surreptitious methods. Since the vendor is the one suggesting it may be possible to live in it, who isn't he regularising the planning status prior to sale.
Has the existing vendor been living in this property and deriving a living by working this land? If he has, any attempt to regularise the planning, May result in an agricultural tie being a condition placed. Perhaps that's OK with you but dwellings with agricultural ties cannot easily be removed, and they are worth less on the market.

[Retrochic]

hi builders mate. The back story is the Vendors are selling off part of their land with this barn and creating a new Title. The barn has been used for horse stables with a groom living in the accommodation above the stables. The Vendors live in an adjacent property. On reflection, and from what you have said, I can't understand why they have not gone down the planning permission route themselves as it would add a considerable amount of money onto the value. As it is we are steering well clear of this property but thanks for the really useful info it really is a minefield this PP larky.

[Peter Pedant]

SOunds like a dog quite honestly good decision

current article in todays Teleg - someone put up a shack in a field and said right we're living in it....
they got retrospective permission....
nad lawful living right doesnt come into it.

[Peter Pedant]

// retro I can't understand why they have not gone down the planning permission route themselves as it would add a considerable amount of money onto the value///

we dont know whether they have and were refused..... do we ?

[Retrochic]

Wow that would never happen here, I can think of two properties that had to be demolished because they were constructed without PP and someone local had to demolish there extension as it was constructed without PP

[Retrochic]

crossed posts peter -my thoughts exactly have they tried for PP and failed? Suppose its easy enough to check if the formally appliedfor but a chat with a PP officer and a 'not on your nelly' answer would be more than likely

[Peter Pedant]

It is this one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/reprieve-for-devon-eco-home-built-without-planning-permission-9624696.html

yeah yeah I know Independent, which comes up if you goggle " D T planning permission

My eyes bulged as I thought - 'I couldnt do that ! '

[Retrochic]

OMG thats ridiculous -they give someone retro PP for a shack made out of old tyres yest if it had been an 'executive home' they wouldn't have had a hope

[buildersmate]

No guys, you are missing one of the key points.
Planning policies in most parts of the country (not sure about National Parks) allow for an additional dwelling to be permitted for a person who derives his income from agriculture or forestry. That, as well as the business about using sustainable materials, seems to be the deal here. Twenty acres is enough to demonstrate a viable smallholding. That was the point of my second reply.
If this groom's full-time job is only looking after the horse, that sounds like accommodation with an agricultural tie to me. And that is what the owners would more easily get, in terms of consent.
And, in turn, that is why are attempting to sale it with hope value, to an unsuspecting punter who doesn't understand these things.
Investment in large bargepole is recommended.