Quizzes & Puzzles1 min ago
How Do A Council Adopt Private Land
We own a house built in the 1800 at that time there was farm land to the rear.
In the 1950s the council put a road in to the side of our house and built an estate
They tell us that the large grass verge that is in our boundery line and always has been has right of way for the county council and we would need to get a stopping up order to be able to fence this in
We have nothing in our deeds and indeed the house has never been owned by the council at any time how do we find out the rights of the council in this
In the 1950s the council put a road in to the side of our house and built an estate
They tell us that the large grass verge that is in our boundery line and always has been has right of way for the county council and we would need to get a stopping up order to be able to fence this in
We have nothing in our deeds and indeed the house has never been owned by the council at any time how do we find out the rights of the council in this
Answers
1 to 15 of 15
I've found the article I referred to earlier http://
17:36 Fri 11th Oct 2013
Interesting.
'In our boundary line' - what do you mean by this? You can't scale the absolute size of your plot off the pretty red lines drawn around areas of land by the Land Registry. It doesn't work like that.
Is this strip of land fenced and maintained by you, and has been done so by you and your predecessors for at least 12 years? If not, there's nothing doing for you, I'm afraid.
If so, post back and I'll provide you further clues where to go next.
'In our boundary line' - what do you mean by this? You can't scale the absolute size of your plot off the pretty red lines drawn around areas of land by the Land Registry. It doesn't work like that.
Is this strip of land fenced and maintained by you, and has been done so by you and your predecessors for at least 12 years? If not, there's nothing doing for you, I'm afraid.
If so, post back and I'll provide you further clues where to go next.
Hi yes in the red lines but the dispute is that the council say its there right of way although they admit they don't want it
What I would like to know is where to look to see who owned the land that was built on if it was the same person as owned our house I could see how it got lumped in with the land behind, but if not where did the council get the permission to adopt our little bit (they do admit its our land) and would they have proof and could I ask to see such proof
We have maintained it ie cut the grass on and off since 1987 when we moved here but was not continuious as my husband works away from home
But at the moment its just a dogs toilet and when the council do cut the grass any litter is cut up a the same time
thank you for your time
What I would like to know is where to look to see who owned the land that was built on if it was the same person as owned our house I could see how it got lumped in with the land behind, but if not where did the council get the permission to adopt our little bit (they do admit its our land) and would they have proof and could I ask to see such proof
We have maintained it ie cut the grass on and off since 1987 when we moved here but was not continuious as my husband works away from home
But at the moment its just a dogs toilet and when the council do cut the grass any litter is cut up a the same time
thank you for your time
OK, not the answer I was expecting from you.
The Highways Authority (which on the type of road you describe means the local council) maintains a statutory list of public roads and the documentation forming the 'legal' aspects of the extent of ownership. However the establishment of public highways have been ongoing since the middle-ages, so the extent of records and the process by which the road and its verges ends up as being regarded as 'dedicated to public passage' is variably. Sometimes the only course of action to establish ownership where there is disagreement is by legal case such that a judge decides. This is probably not what you have in mind, but there are a bunch of steps you could take by doing the donkey work yourself to find out the legal process and extent of documentation in your case.
Publicly maintained highways are created in one of four ways:
by history if the road was established prior to 1835, a key date
by specific dedication by the owner or by conveyance to a Highways Authority
by formal adoption
by acquisition under the '20 year rule' of general public usage of a route over a private piece of land.
It is my guess that yours falls in category 3. You don't say whether the houses constructed in the 50s where council houses or not. If they were, the council would have had to buy the land (or demonstrate prior ownership), including the access route to the public highway. If not, the same applies to a private developer. Whatever the method of build, the adoption of the public highway occurs as a separate process after the constuction of the estate. The relevant act now is Section 38 of the Highways Act 1980, however your estate was built prior to that.
There's a gap in my knowledge here, because I don't know the basis under which pre-1980 roads were covered in minimal legal documentation, for this Highways Act to apply.
You should start by asking the Highways Authority to provide the relevant documentation under s38 Highways Act 1980 for the extent of this road. You will have a pay a search fee for this.
Alternatively, if you know the houses were built by a private developer, you could try going back through the Land Registry records for one of the private houses on the estate (it doen't really matter which one since they should all hold similar reference conveyance information) looking for the original land conveyance (it should be a held file for reference under the Land title of the parcel of land) that transferred the ownership of the whole plot of land including access road in the first place.
Lastly you should know that a highway, once dedicated, including its verges, cannot be 'claimed back' by a neighbouring landowner under Adverse Possession.
I know Cassa is trying to be helpful; but her comments are irrelevant to this situation, whereby the question is one of extent of the width of the dedicated highway, including its verges.
The Highways Authority (which on the type of road you describe means the local council) maintains a statutory list of public roads and the documentation forming the 'legal' aspects of the extent of ownership. However the establishment of public highways have been ongoing since the middle-ages, so the extent of records and the process by which the road and its verges ends up as being regarded as 'dedicated to public passage' is variably. Sometimes the only course of action to establish ownership where there is disagreement is by legal case such that a judge decides. This is probably not what you have in mind, but there are a bunch of steps you could take by doing the donkey work yourself to find out the legal process and extent of documentation in your case.
Publicly maintained highways are created in one of four ways:
by history if the road was established prior to 1835, a key date
by specific dedication by the owner or by conveyance to a Highways Authority
by formal adoption
by acquisition under the '20 year rule' of general public usage of a route over a private piece of land.
It is my guess that yours falls in category 3. You don't say whether the houses constructed in the 50s where council houses or not. If they were, the council would have had to buy the land (or demonstrate prior ownership), including the access route to the public highway. If not, the same applies to a private developer. Whatever the method of build, the adoption of the public highway occurs as a separate process after the constuction of the estate. The relevant act now is Section 38 of the Highways Act 1980, however your estate was built prior to that.
There's a gap in my knowledge here, because I don't know the basis under which pre-1980 roads were covered in minimal legal documentation, for this Highways Act to apply.
You should start by asking the Highways Authority to provide the relevant documentation under s38 Highways Act 1980 for the extent of this road. You will have a pay a search fee for this.
Alternatively, if you know the houses were built by a private developer, you could try going back through the Land Registry records for one of the private houses on the estate (it doen't really matter which one since they should all hold similar reference conveyance information) looking for the original land conveyance (it should be a held file for reference under the Land title of the parcel of land) that transferred the ownership of the whole plot of land including access road in the first place.
Lastly you should know that a highway, once dedicated, including its verges, cannot be 'claimed back' by a neighbouring landowner under Adverse Possession.
I know Cassa is trying to be helpful; but her comments are irrelevant to this situation, whereby the question is one of extent of the width of the dedicated highway, including its verges.
Apologies, got the wrong section.
s38 deals with the power of Highways Authority to adopt.
It is s36 that deals with defining which existing highways shall be maintainable at public expense by Highways Authorities. Since your road goes back to the 50s, you should be asking about the extent of their information applicable under s36.
s38 deals with the power of Highways Authority to adopt.
It is s36 that deals with defining which existing highways shall be maintainable at public expense by Highways Authorities. Since your road goes back to the 50s, you should be asking about the extent of their information applicable under s36.
Would help if you added the relevant link BM ?
This is what BM quoted HA s36
http://
This is what BM quoted HA s36
http://
How can the grass verge be a right of way? Surely the road is a right of way but if the land registry plans show the verge as part of your land then it will be part of your land -you've said the council admit this. You say there is nothing indicating a right of way covenant in your deeds -is there a covenant attached to the land registry plans giving rights of way? If the council admit you are the owner and have indicated that they really don't want the land anyway why not just apply for a stopping order -you will more than likely get it -then fence it in?
I have zero expertise but, logically, the council should have discovered the deeds of the 1800s house at the time they were planning to build the housing estate to the rear, seen the extent of the existing property boundary and (you would have thought) put in a compulsory purchase order for the strip of land which was going to become the access road.
If I was in yellow242's position, my initial line of enquiry would be to ask for papers pertaining to the construction of the estate. Were the then-owners of the house paid for a slice of their plot or was there some maladministration?
A land registry search will probably only record the plain fact that a strip of land changed hands, on date 'X' but might not provide background detail and council paperwork - not good value for the fee.
Alternatively, it could transpire that the 1800s owner of the farmland had the foresight to exclude a strip of land from the house plot so as to have the option of selling more plots on the land to the rear and that the council purchased these from the farmland owner, with no need to involve the house owners beyond the standard notification that building was going to occur nearby.
Incidentally, a previous AB thread gave me cause to look up some jargon on Wikipedia which led to a second page, regarding 'Adverse Possession'. I can't remember the name of the first page but it was concerning a land plot developed in two stages where the person in place first finds their driveway access blocked. The reverse of the situation here but similar in that it involves the first buyer having things happen outside of their control because of the actions of the original landholder selling additional lots.
If I was in yellow242's position, my initial line of enquiry would be to ask for papers pertaining to the construction of the estate. Were the then-owners of the house paid for a slice of their plot or was there some maladministration?
A land registry search will probably only record the plain fact that a strip of land changed hands, on date 'X' but might not provide background detail and council paperwork - not good value for the fee.
Alternatively, it could transpire that the 1800s owner of the farmland had the foresight to exclude a strip of land from the house plot so as to have the option of selling more plots on the land to the rear and that the council purchased these from the farmland owner, with no need to involve the house owners beyond the standard notification that building was going to occur nearby.
Incidentally, a previous AB thread gave me cause to look up some jargon on Wikipedia which led to a second page, regarding 'Adverse Possession'. I can't remember the name of the first page but it was concerning a land plot developed in two stages where the person in place first finds their driveway access blocked. The reverse of the situation here but similar in that it involves the first buyer having things happen outside of their control because of the actions of the original landholder selling additional lots.
I've found the article I referred to earlier
http://
If your c1800s land deed shows that the land plot extends all the way to the hedge line (say) and the council's road has been built parallel to that hedge line but on your side of it then the fault lies with the previous owner of the farmland for not negotiating with the house's then-owner for purchase of a 30' wide strip of their land plot on which to build the access road (and more width again for a pavement), for onward sale to the council.
The council no doubt believed their purchase price included the strip for the access road but they were similarly conned. They could be in a position to say they took possession of the strip of land in good faith but technically were sold something which the seller did not actually own so your only recourse is to claim against the (1950s!) landowner. (Or this will become a nasty financial shock for their descendents).
I must repeat, I am no expert. Make enquiries with the council and, inevitably, seek legal advice. Just don't expect restitution to be at 2013 land values.
http://
If your c1800s land deed shows that the land plot extends all the way to the hedge line (say) and the council's road has been built parallel to that hedge line but on your side of it then the fault lies with the previous owner of the farmland for not negotiating with the house's then-owner for purchase of a 30' wide strip of their land plot on which to build the access road (and more width again for a pavement), for onward sale to the council.
The council no doubt believed their purchase price included the strip for the access road but they were similarly conned. They could be in a position to say they took possession of the strip of land in good faith but technically were sold something which the seller did not actually own so your only recourse is to claim against the (1950s!) landowner. (Or this will become a nasty financial shock for their descendents).
I must repeat, I am no expert. Make enquiries with the council and, inevitably, seek legal advice. Just don't expect restitution to be at 2013 land values.
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