Ladder Work

[CJHorse]

If I employ a self-employed tradesman to do some work at height on my house (gable end above the height of the upper windows - about 20-30 feet up) and he uses a ladder instead of scaffolding, would I be liable if he fell off and injured himself?

[murraymints]

would not think so..he has a duty of care to himself

[boxtops]

No. He would quote you for the work, it's his responsibility to make sure he does it safely. However - I though there were regulations about working at height, and that you can't use ladders above a certain height, you have to use a scaffold tower (good old H&S).

[boxtops]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

[CJHorse]

My first thought was that he would be responsible for his own safety, but the HSE guidance says:

"The Regulations apply to all work at height where there is risk of a fall that is liable to cause personal injury. They place duties on employers, the self-employed and any person who controls the work of others (such as facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height)."

I am worried that I might come under the last category.

[murraymints]

you are contracting a sole self employed person with sole responsibility for himself ..

[boxtops]

We need one of the builder experts here! I've ever felt responsible for the men working on the scaffold at the back of my house, or repairing my chimney - I don't know how we (who contract the work) could make it any more safe for them.

[boxtops]

^ never, not ever

[The Builder]

A potential legal minefield, CJ (isn't everything, though?)

It's always been understood, in the "trade", that he would be entirely responsible for his own wellbeing.

Today though, one of the many "no win no fee" lawyers might surface in the event of an accident. I can hear the arguments now. You knew of the breach of regulations, thus are complicit.

Unfair of course. In the matter of "Employers Liability", who's to say that you're not, in this case, an Employer? Perhaps a Court might take this view since, by bypassing (costlier) safe working, you benefit from his way of doing the work with reduce costs.

I'm only throwing ideas around. I can't say that I've come across any problem.

[Old_Geezer]

Does anyone use ladders these days when they can charge their improved safety situation to the customer ?

[boxtops]

... not in my experience - £200 for my latest scaffolding effort :-)

[Gizmonster]

@OG - I don't think my customers would appreciate me using scaffold to clean their windows .... and don't even mention the "reach and wash" system .... it's ok for high level work (which is what it was originally intended for), but not very good (in my opinion) for doing residential work.

[Old_Geezer]

That's a pity, is sounded the ideal way to get one's own windows done and not have to get you experts in to do it. Why does it not seem as good for 2 story buildings as it is for taller ones ?

[Gizmonster]

It gets the bulk of the dirt off, but it doesn't leave them "squeaky clean".
You can't beat "up close and personal" in my opinion. If there's a bad mark on the window (some bird poo for example), when I'm up the ladder at window, I can just use my scraper to get the mark off. When I'm down on the floor and using the reach and wash system, I can rub the window with the brush and hope that the rubbing action and the de-ionised water will remove the mark - not an easy task if the sun has baked it on ;P

[Gizmonster]

.... and that's assuming that I actually see the mark, whilst stood down on the floor.

[Old_Geezer]

Ah. So by implication tall building users/owners put up with less than perfect results. Ah well. Thanks.

[Gizmonster]

Some of the taller buildings are only cleaned once every 6 months, some even once every 12 months ... so any kind of clean (no matter how less than perfect it may be), will make the windows a lot cleaner than they were before the clean.

[Peter Pedant]

No .... fails on all sorts of things
contract for services,
duty, causation, foreseeability spring to mind

he should be insured himself

[bednobs]

aren't there some CDM regs changing soon to put more onus on the house owner?
Anyway, the simple solution is just to go out - then you have no knowledge of how safely thaey are carrying out the works. My husband is a health and safety professional, and i just bundle him out if we are ever having any work down else he is a total nightmare