ChatterBank0 min ago
Access rights to house
Please help - A new neighbour recently moved next door to us. We live in a hamlet of five houses who have all used the first bit of the private lane to gain access to our homes since they have been converted 15 years ago (the actual properties are grade ii listed and have been standing for hundreds of years) The land also has a public right of way on foot along the lane. The new and awkward owner has just sent us a letter (not from his solicitor) to let us know he objects to us using the lane and we have to let potential buyers know that we now are in dispute. We are trying to sell and are very concerned about what to do, we have an indemnity that we took out when we bought the house 5 years ago and a document from the previous owners that they have never had a problem accessing their property or garage. There is no other way to get to our house. What if he next decides to charge an obscene amount of money to use it - please help - very stressed
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How long had the previous owners been using the lane? Had they used it continuously, and freely? In the same way you are using it now? Are they prepared to verify their use, in writing?
What you're looking to get is documented proof of continuous use for 12 years (I think it's 12). If you can produce this, you can claim an easement over the road (a private right of way).
Although you can do it yourself, it's probably better to get a solicitor involved.
And on a second tack, do you know who owns the private lane? If it's not the objector, then he hasn't really got any grounds to stop you using it. Youe own deeds may indicate ownership of the lane, but you can check the objectors deeds at the Land Registry (about �5) and see if he does own it.
What you're looking to get is documented proof of continuous use for 12 years (I think it's 12). If you can produce this, you can claim an easement over the road (a private right of way).
Although you can do it yourself, it's probably better to get a solicitor involved.
And on a second tack, do you know who owns the private lane? If it's not the objector, then he hasn't really got any grounds to stop you using it. Youe own deeds may indicate ownership of the lane, but you can check the objectors deeds at the Land Registry (about �5) and see if he does own it.
to the person who just answered my question - thanks - we have a signed legal document from the previous owners saying they have never had an issue or problem with the access, the access is purely used to get using our car to and from our property onto the main road approx 40/50 yards from our house.
This does depend partly on who owns the access. I assume this is your new neighbour because - unless he is completely "not with it" - he would not have written the letter if he did not have ownership. As suggested, you can check this online at the Land Registry. If he does own it, he will only have acquired it recently so it will be registered.
If you can demonstrate he does not own it, then he has no rights to enforce what he is saying and there is no dispute and the solicitor who will be dealing with your sale should write to him accordingly.
You say there is a public right of way on foot along the lane so I assume your concern is only about access using vehicles. If the neighbour does own the lane, then - in the absence of any documents granting a right of way - you need to be able to prove that you have a prescriptive easement or right of way. This means showing that you and previous owners have had unrestricted access with vehicles for (I think) 20 years. Your solicitor can confirm the period. As the properties were only converted 15 years ago this may be difficult - it probably depends on what the previous use was and what access was used then.
I hope the above helps, but I don't think you will be able to sort this out without input from your solicitor.
If you can demonstrate he does not own it, then he has no rights to enforce what he is saying and there is no dispute and the solicitor who will be dealing with your sale should write to him accordingly.
You say there is a public right of way on foot along the lane so I assume your concern is only about access using vehicles. If the neighbour does own the lane, then - in the absence of any documents granting a right of way - you need to be able to prove that you have a prescriptive easement or right of way. This means showing that you and previous owners have had unrestricted access with vehicles for (I think) 20 years. Your solicitor can confirm the period. As the properties were only converted 15 years ago this may be difficult - it probably depends on what the previous use was and what access was used then.
I hope the above helps, but I don't think you will be able to sort this out without input from your solicitor.
(1) If it is your primary access, ie your only access, then nobody can stop you from using it. It should not be all that difficult to establish your right, but you will have to start with the Land Registry and it may have to go to Court for an Order enabling the LR to act
(2) If it is a secondary access it may be more difficult.
(3) It does not matter at all who owns the land, so waste no time over that
(4) The LR offers a full search regarding Rights of Way. See http://www.landsearch.net/boundaries.asp and scroll down to BND 3
(5) There is no such thing as a "public right of way on foot". Please explain.
(6) The previous owner document to which you refer is presumably a Statutory Declaration.
(7) What you are seeking is a statement on your Register at the Land Registry that you can "pass and repass on foot and by vehicle at any time by day and by night" over the land.
(8) Check whether the land is Registered by going to
http://www.landreg.gov.uk/ (you need the Title No as a reference). If it is not, contact your local District Land Registry Office and ask them to issue a Title Number (it is not necessary for you to Register the land).
(9) If it is the primary access your property is blighted and will not sell until you now establish at the Land Registry a right to access that cannot be disputed
(10) whilst there is a minimum period for a prescriptive right a lesser period will be just as acceptable if it is your primary access
(2) If it is a secondary access it may be more difficult.
(3) It does not matter at all who owns the land, so waste no time over that
(4) The LR offers a full search regarding Rights of Way. See http://www.landsearch.net/boundaries.asp and scroll down to BND 3
(5) There is no such thing as a "public right of way on foot". Please explain.
(6) The previous owner document to which you refer is presumably a Statutory Declaration.
(7) What you are seeking is a statement on your Register at the Land Registry that you can "pass and repass on foot and by vehicle at any time by day and by night" over the land.
(8) Check whether the land is Registered by going to
http://www.landreg.gov.uk/ (you need the Title No as a reference). If it is not, contact your local District Land Registry Office and ask them to issue a Title Number (it is not necessary for you to Register the land).
(9) If it is the primary access your property is blighted and will not sell until you now establish at the Land Registry a right to access that cannot be disputed
(10) whilst there is a minimum period for a prescriptive right a lesser period will be just as acceptable if it is your primary access
Most of the above answers deal with some of the answer, though Musthaveatickle is incorrect in his assertion number 1.
The right that Siamsal is referring to is a Right by Prescription, and its a minimum of 20 years, not 12.
If it is Public Highway or Byway category, you have no problem taking a vehicle up it - but it sounds like it isn't.
If it is Public Right of Way, you will have a legal problem passing a vehicle up it if it is classed as a RUPP (road used as a private path), a Bridleway or a Footpath. Unless you can prove right of access by Prescription.
To gain such a right you have to show over 20 years use without permission (from the landowner), continuously. The way I got it was by getting a sworn statement from the previous owner that he had been using it in this way. This protects me from a legal owner of the Bridleway (in my case) turning up and trying to stop me using it with my car.
Post again if you want more help on this - though I'm not a lawyer I believe I know a fair bit about this.
The right that Siamsal is referring to is a Right by Prescription, and its a minimum of 20 years, not 12.
If it is Public Highway or Byway category, you have no problem taking a vehicle up it - but it sounds like it isn't.
If it is Public Right of Way, you will have a legal problem passing a vehicle up it if it is classed as a RUPP (road used as a private path), a Bridleway or a Footpath. Unless you can prove right of access by Prescription.
To gain such a right you have to show over 20 years use without permission (from the landowner), continuously. The way I got it was by getting a sworn statement from the previous owner that he had been using it in this way. This protects me from a legal owner of the Bridleway (in my case) turning up and trying to stop me using it with my car.
Post again if you want more help on this - though I'm not a lawyer I believe I know a fair bit about this.
(1) I have asserted for the peace of mind of jdn that if it is his/her primary access he/she will not be deprived of it. This is correct. No court will bring about a situation under the circumstances described whereby the property is landlocked. A secondary access is different.
(2) The 15 years that jdn states and the period for a prescriptive right are two entirely different things. If it is the primary access and on the balance of probabilities has always been the primary access for 15 years there should be no difficulty (other than the formalities) in getting the Register at the Land Registry appropriately endorsed
(3) There is no legal status for bridleway, footpath and the other terms used immediately above. That is why I have asked jdn to say exactly how it is being used
(4) A Statutory Declaration conveys no right whatsoever. None at all. It is only somebody telling their story in a written form that can be put before a court as evidence. This evidence, as with all evidence, can be contested, discredited, ignored, thrown out, or partially or totally accepted at the discretion of the court. If thrown out the declarer can be prosecuted for perjury. One Stat Dec is better than none, but where they are given by sellers of property are often viewed as tainted and prejudiced and not worth a lot because of the money involved. It is more worthwhile to try and get four or five independent ones, even if they are a bit vague.
(2) The 15 years that jdn states and the period for a prescriptive right are two entirely different things. If it is the primary access and on the balance of probabilities has always been the primary access for 15 years there should be no difficulty (other than the formalities) in getting the Register at the Land Registry appropriately endorsed
(3) There is no legal status for bridleway, footpath and the other terms used immediately above. That is why I have asked jdn to say exactly how it is being used
(4) A Statutory Declaration conveys no right whatsoever. None at all. It is only somebody telling their story in a written form that can be put before a court as evidence. This evidence, as with all evidence, can be contested, discredited, ignored, thrown out, or partially or totally accepted at the discretion of the court. If thrown out the declarer can be prosecuted for perjury. One Stat Dec is better than none, but where they are given by sellers of property are often viewed as tainted and prejudiced and not worth a lot because of the money involved. It is more worthwhile to try and get four or five independent ones, even if they are a bit vague.
mustafa, I'm having difficulty in coming to terms with your statement that there is no legal basis for public footpaths, bridleways, etc.
Various acts, including the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 and its predecessors have established and codified exactly this.
I can accept that the existence of a public footpath along the lane doesn't help OP in establishing a right of access to his property, but I can't accept that the footpath has no legal status.
Is that what you really meant to say?
Various acts, including the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 and its predecessors have established and codified exactly this.
I can accept that the existence of a public footpath along the lane doesn't help OP in establishing a right of access to his property, but I can't accept that the footpath has no legal status.
Is that what you really meant to say?
(Part 1 of 2)
Mustafa
Your point 1 above says JDN cannot be deprived of it. But this surely doesn't mean JDN can acquire it for free. Under the Vehicle Access across Common and Other Land (England) Act 2002, a legal process was enabled to allow landlocked owners to acquire a legal right of vehicle access to their land. However a mandated schedule of costs are payable - in JNO's case, 0.25% of the value of the property would be payable (as the property exists before 1906). This Act only applies in England (Wales and Scotland may have done similar)
However JNO (or a previous owner) may have acquired a right of vehicle access under the Prescription Act 1832. This requires the >20 years continuous use bit, freely etc. as highlighted by others above. A problem with this arises if the land over which the access has been used is Common Land, because under various Road Traffic Acts, one is not permitted to go more than 10 yards off the Highway onto common land. Because of this, access cannot be acquired through the Prescription (because using the access was illegal). This is the situation I was faced with (with a Bridleway). The bit I am not clear about is whether a Footpath (as in JND's situation) counts as common land. If it's on the footpath register (which I believe makes it count as 'common land') held by the County Council, I think it does (thoughts?). In that case, JND cannot claim access by Prescription, but equally JND's neighbour doesn't own the land either - so can't stop him using it as a vehicle access.
Mustafa
Your point 1 above says JDN cannot be deprived of it. But this surely doesn't mean JDN can acquire it for free. Under the Vehicle Access across Common and Other Land (England) Act 2002, a legal process was enabled to allow landlocked owners to acquire a legal right of vehicle access to their land. However a mandated schedule of costs are payable - in JNO's case, 0.25% of the value of the property would be payable (as the property exists before 1906). This Act only applies in England (Wales and Scotland may have done similar)
However JNO (or a previous owner) may have acquired a right of vehicle access under the Prescription Act 1832. This requires the >20 years continuous use bit, freely etc. as highlighted by others above. A problem with this arises if the land over which the access has been used is Common Land, because under various Road Traffic Acts, one is not permitted to go more than 10 yards off the Highway onto common land. Because of this, access cannot be acquired through the Prescription (because using the access was illegal). This is the situation I was faced with (with a Bridleway). The bit I am not clear about is whether a Footpath (as in JND's situation) counts as common land. If it's on the footpath register (which I believe makes it count as 'common land') held by the County Council, I think it does (thoughts?). In that case, JND cannot claim access by Prescription, but equally JND's neighbour doesn't own the land either - so can't stop him using it as a vehicle access.
Part 2 of 2
If the Footpath is on private land (say owned by JND's neighbour) then access by Prescription may have been acquired, in which case a Statutory Declaration by the previous owner confirming the type of access used and the circumstances may be usable by JND to acquire an easement that could be inserted on the Land Registry records. If this were the case, the legal process in my first para would not be invoked and no payment to the landowner would be required.
Your thoughts in further helping my understanding (and JND's!) would be appreciated.
If the Footpath is on private land (say owned by JND's neighbour) then access by Prescription may have been acquired, in which case a Statutory Declaration by the previous owner confirming the type of access used and the circumstances may be usable by JND to acquire an easement that could be inserted on the Land Registry records. If this were the case, the legal process in my first para would not be invoked and no payment to the landowner would be required.
Your thoughts in further helping my understanding (and JND's!) would be appreciated.
Thankyou all for your help! The property is a grade ii listed building that was converted from a barn to living quarters 15 years ago. it is situated down a private lane about 50 yards from the main road and is the only acccess to the property. A famous walk called the witton weavers way (west pennine moors) passes through the hamlet and there is a sign at the bottom of the lane pointing down the lane which reads 'public footpath'. We have a written legal document from the previous owners witnessed and signed by solicitors that they have had access since the barn was converted and have never had a problem regarding access. Our current solicitor is looking into this but seems to be taking forever! The neighbour yesterday showed my husband a copy of our deeds he had obtained from the land registry however they do not match the deeds that we have and have missed certain bits that are on our original deeds. What happens here? How do we find out who has the correct deeds? All our other neighbours (four houses) say they have access written on their deeds but there does seem to be different sets of deeds floating around. The hamlet was all converted at the same time and all the neighbours have never had a problemwith access. My husband went around to the neighbour and hopefully they have sorted it out regarding access. My worry is isn't there a law to stop new owners from doing this and even trying to charge people! This could still raise it's 'ugly head' so we are seeking legal advice regarding this especially if we sell. The question about the footpath - all we know is that people can pass through on foot. Can people have different deeds? Could he block the lane and charge us? If something like this went to court how long would it take and are we talking thousands of pounds? Also who would be 'likely to win' and who would have to pay the costs if we won? Thankyou so much for taking time to help me !
Deeds aren't relevant for registered land. Get a copy of your land registry record (the same as you say your neighbour did) - this is what counts. Mustafa tells you how to do this above - can be done online for a few pounds. Worth doing now because we may need to ask you what words are on it regarding access.
I've set out above what I think the position is but will now wait for any replies from Mustafa etc.
I think the worst case scenario is that it may cost 0.25% of your property value to acquire the necessary easement - but it may be as low as zero. Your indemnity insurance may have been bought to cover this eventuality - it depends what policy it is exactly. I'm sure we can sort out the position for you.
I've set out above what I think the position is but will now wait for any replies from Mustafa etc.
I think the worst case scenario is that it may cost 0.25% of your property value to acquire the necessary easement - but it may be as low as zero. Your indemnity insurance may have been bought to cover this eventuality - it depends what policy it is exactly. I'm sure we can sort out the position for you.
In my experience the land register does not always contain all relevant information and it is important to keep the original deeds as well. In your case it sounds as if your neighbour has got your deeds from the land registry but that you have something more complete - presumably the original deeds. If there is anything in yours which is relevant to this problem then they should take precedence - it could be just that the information was omitted by LR in error. If this is the case, your solicitor will have to use the original deeds you have to get the LR entry altered.
You say all 4 neighbours say they have access written on their deeds. Are all 4 worded the same? If so, it seems very odd if your deeds do not contain the same access provision. This could be an error when the properties were first sold off - for which the solicitor who dealt with it should be liable, but getting them to accept that (if they still exist) after 15 years would be difficult.
There are only 5 houses so - if the other 4 do have access on their deeds - this seems to include the neighbour who is claiming to be able to block the access. If he has an access right on his deeds this should mean he does not own the access, in which case he cannot stop you using it. You can get the deeds for all the other houses from land registry to check for yourself.
If the other houses do have access rights on their deeds this seems to imply the ownership of the lane was known - it would be difficult to give such rights over land of unknown ownership unless a prescriptive right had already accrued. If you can find out who owns the lane (if it is not the neighbour) it might help resolve the problem.
Is there any way of finding out what the barn was used for before the conversion, and whether there was any vehicle traffic to it along the lane? If there had been for 5 years immediately prior to the conversion then - added to the 15 years -
You say all 4 neighbours say they have access written on their deeds. Are all 4 worded the same? If so, it seems very odd if your deeds do not contain the same access provision. This could be an error when the properties were first sold off - for which the solicitor who dealt with it should be liable, but getting them to accept that (if they still exist) after 15 years would be difficult.
There are only 5 houses so - if the other 4 do have access on their deeds - this seems to include the neighbour who is claiming to be able to block the access. If he has an access right on his deeds this should mean he does not own the access, in which case he cannot stop you using it. You can get the deeds for all the other houses from land registry to check for yourself.
If the other houses do have access rights on their deeds this seems to imply the ownership of the lane was known - it would be difficult to give such rights over land of unknown ownership unless a prescriptive right had already accrued. If you can find out who owns the lane (if it is not the neighbour) it might help resolve the problem.
Is there any way of finding out what the barn was used for before the conversion, and whether there was any vehicle traffic to it along the lane? If there had been for 5 years immediately prior to the conversion then - added to the 15 years -
JDN - this thread seems to have come to an abupt halt. Pity because I was interested in learning the legal basis of Mustafa's comments. If you want to post the specific wording regarding your right of access from your Land Registry title I will comment further, otherwise back to your solicitor.
For example, it may say something like: - "Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules 1925 on {date} that the registered proprietor claims that the land in this title has the benefit of a right of way over the track to {name of the nearest public highway}."
For example, it may say something like: - "Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules 1925 on {date} that the registered proprietor claims that the land in this title has the benefit of a right of way over the track to {name of the nearest public highway}."
Sorry Guys
The thread hasn't gone dead!
I have been to the solicitor as advised by you and he has thoroughly read through our deeds and can't see an actual right of way regarding access written on our deeds. He has sent off to the land registry to find out exactly who owns what piece of land and also sent off for a copy of our neighbours deeds.
Meanwhile our new neighbour came to see me on Friday and said he doesn't want to lose ownership of the lane and won't prevent us using it and then said we could get a 'lease' or something similar from him that we could then sell on with the house - I didn't know what to say so said nothing because I am now worried that he may try and charge us money for this and I obviously don't want to 'p**s' him off if he can stop us from selling!
I am awaiting the solicitor to get back to us regarding these deeds and right of ways.
Again a HUGE thankyou for your advice and I am still very worried that we will be held to randsom by this neighbour who I don't trust. (when he was due to complete and exchange contracts on his house he threatened to pull out unless they dropped the price by thirty grand - so you can see what we could be up against)
The thread hasn't gone dead!
I have been to the solicitor as advised by you and he has thoroughly read through our deeds and can't see an actual right of way regarding access written on our deeds. He has sent off to the land registry to find out exactly who owns what piece of land and also sent off for a copy of our neighbours deeds.
Meanwhile our new neighbour came to see me on Friday and said he doesn't want to lose ownership of the lane and won't prevent us using it and then said we could get a 'lease' or something similar from him that we could then sell on with the house - I didn't know what to say so said nothing because I am now worried that he may try and charge us money for this and I obviously don't want to 'p**s' him off if he can stop us from selling!
I am awaiting the solicitor to get back to us regarding these deeds and right of ways.
Again a HUGE thankyou for your advice and I am still very worried that we will be held to randsom by this neighbour who I don't trust. (when he was due to complete and exchange contracts on his house he threatened to pull out unless they dropped the price by thirty grand - so you can see what we could be up against)
What does your neighbour mean - "he doesn't want to lose ownership of the lane"? If he does own it, how does he think he could lose it unless he sells it. His idea of you having a lease seems a nonsense - you need an easement or right of way. Is he saying the same to the other 3 house owners? If not, why not - or do their deeds differ from yours?
If the neighbour does own the lane, he may well want to charge you for regularising the position. You would then probably need an agent or surveyor to negotiate a price on your behalf. You would also need to look into whether there was any negligence on the part of the solicitor who acted for you on your purchase (or possibly the one who acted when the houses were originally sold 15 years ago) which might give you a claim against them.
If the neighbour does own the lane, he may well want to charge you for regularising the position. You would then probably need an agent or surveyor to negotiate a price on your behalf. You would also need to look into whether there was any negligence on the part of the solicitor who acted for you on your purchase (or possibly the one who acted when the houses were originally sold 15 years ago) which might give you a claim against them.
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