Overcharged by plumbers - what can I do?

[camille79]

After our shower went kaputt last week I called our local plumber and he installed a new one.  Stupidly, I didn't ask for a written quote but time seemed to be of the essence (we don't have a bath so really depend on the shower).  There was a vague verbal quote as to how much things would cost.  The bill came in yesterday and they have charged us �260 for a Mira Zest 8.6!  This seemed very high, so I contacted Mira who told me that the RRP was �110 but I could probly get it cheaper if I shopped around.  I just spoke to the plumber and asked them to confirm the invoice which they said they would check, although stated that showers come direct from their wholesaler and are charged at cost.  They also said the wholesaler was more expensive than b&Q etc.  which I find odd.  I would assume that trade prices would be lower than retail?

Am thinking that they are really taking the michael so asked them to check the price and call back.  What I would like to know is do I have to pay the invoice?  I am happy with the standard of the work and am happy to pay for their labour etc but the cost for the shower itself seems astronomical! 

[Loosehead]

Verify the exact model etc and then Ask for their suppliers details and check the cost with them. If they won't divulge (the plumber not the supplier) then clearly they have something to hide, if this is the case you should pay what you think is correct, �110 and challenge them to demonstrate that you owe more. Alternatively pay them the labour costs and buy the same shower from B&Q and give it to the plumber who should then be able to return it to his supplier and get a refund/or credit for �260! I suspect though that as is all too common they are taking the &^ss.

[Sludge]

Under the circumstances you set out the plumber can charge what he likes for the shower. If he will not agree to a reduction then you are liable for the full amount of the invoice. It is not in the least bit advisable to attempt part or reduced payments, it can easily end up a jolly sight more expensive and troublesome.

[Oneeyedvic]

Could you clarify if the total bill was �260.00 or was the bill higher and itemised showing the shower costing �260.00?

If it is the former, then as sludge says, you really haven't got a case at all - after all their is fitting etc to take into account.

 

In the second case, you may have a case, but debateable. Please confirm which and I will go into further details.

[cross chris]

i myself am a plumber i feel that there are two many people complainig about our charges. please take into consideration that firstly you agreed to the price secondly you did not supply the shower to the plumber and the plumber would not be able to take a replacement to the wholesalers for a refund as they did not purchse that exact item from the suppliers this as im sure you are aware is illegal.the plumber may possibley have been to your home to inspect the unit before going to collect the item this is all time and if he feels that he wishes to put this cost onto the product so be it. further more plumbing and heating suppliers are quite often more expensive than b&q not to the degree you have been charged but still thay are dearer. in my opinion you were given a quote the job was done and the bill needs paying  

[camille79]

The �260 is for the actual shower.  There is an additional charge for 2hrs labour and sealant etc which I am more than happy to pay.  As I said, the standard of the work is good but the actual shower itself seems a bit overpriced!

[Sludge]

As I have previously said, you are liable for the whole amount of the invoice unless the plumber agrees to a reduction, and you have absolutely no argument against it. The amount that the plumber actually paid for the shower is no business of yours, non whatsoever. All that has happened is that you have purchased it in an expensive way. The plumber is reasonably entitled to commence his calculation with the RRP �110 and then add Establishment Charges (office, phone, etc) of 40% say �45, and then Profit 40%, say �45, then Collection from Merchant, say �30, and then Risk (if the thing fails to work he has to return to fix it), say �30. From this can easily be seen that a cost of �260 if purchased through the plumber is perfectly reasonable. But even if you do not agree it does not matter. You are liable for the amount and have absolutely no grounds by which to dispute it.

[Oneeyedvic]

Ignore Sludges previous answer - there is lots you can do....bear with me though as it may take me sometime to give you your best course of action.

[Miss Zippy]

I'd be inclined to ignore Sludge too who claims to be an expert in "international contract and land law and general civil law", according to an answer in another post. Clearly the ramblings of someone who hasn't a clue what they're on about. 

[zmudge]

I agree with Oneeyedvic and Miss Zippy. Ignore Sludge completely who has posted ignorant foolish rubbish.You are legally entitled to pay only what you yourself think the job is worth, the plumbers invoice is a try it on - Oneeyedvic is going to tell you how this works so I must be polite and let him tell you not me. But I suspect Oneeyedvic will tell you same as Loosehead - buy the same shower from B&Q and take it round to the plumber with your payment for the 2 hours which you are happy with and dump on his desk and say thats it, thats all your getting. Thats what I would do, anyway.

[Oneeyedvic]

Okay, firstly sludge is sort of right.....please learn this lesson first....ALWAYS GET A QUOTE!!!!!!

Best thing to do is to say to the plumber that you are happy with their service and installation but not happy about the cost of the shower. Pay the whole bill less �150 (�260 - RRP of �110). Put the cheque in the post today with a covering letter stating the reason for the lower price.

With luck, this should end it - lets face it - its hassle to set up a county court summons.

If not, then say to them that since you contacted them by telephone, this comes under "distance selling regulations 2000". This gives you a 7 day cooling off period.  Since I very much doubt that you would have had what is prescribed in these regulations (ie cancellation rights etc) you are given up to a maximum of 3 months and 7 days to cancel. Although you (obviously) can't cancel the service element of the contract (after all this has already been done), you can reject the goods - ie the shower!

All you have to do is to have taken good care of the goods - and they are responsible for taking it out!. Okay, if they want to be petty, they can come round and take it out (but they will obviously lose more money this way) - practically though, they should be able to either accept your first offer (a fair price for the shower) or you can agree to buy the same shower from B&Q and give it to them in a box so they can resell it/return it to their supplier!

 

Any problems, give me a shout!

I would just point out though that a RRP is not the maximum price they can sell it for -they have the right to sell it at that extrodinarily high price.

You could also point out that you are prepared to go to your local papers and tell them that this company is quite happy to charge double the RRP for goods......

[zmudge]

Oh no, Oneeyedvic, do not say that Sludge can be right in anything. Miss Zippy and me want her to be everyways wrong. Please, please rethink what you have said and state that she dont know nothing. Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[X111]

This afternoon when I first saw this it was of interest because of something that I am doing. Whilst speaking with our local Plumb Center later I enquired the price of a Mira Zest 8.6 and was told that new in a box it is �58.88 including VAT.

[KARL]

I believe this comes under the Sale of Goods and Services Act, which is somewhat vaguely worded about fit for use and fair pricing. What is just as important as the Act is how the courts interpret it and that varies from court to court across the UK. While the goods part on its own stands up better simply because shops nowadays have a much more consumer friendly attitude than when the Act was written, tradesmen can still, and some do, take advantage of their position and the consumer is all too often in a very disadvantaged one. Court decisions have been biased, bizarre and everything in between including the consumer winning three quarters of the argument but being ordered to pay three quarters of the opponent's costs. When things get complicated the judge knows as much about the issues as he knows about astro-physics, so he will most likely average between the two parties. Even a bent but thick tradesman quickly understands that if he overcharges 10, 20 or 50 fold he increases his chances of winning any argument in court - especially as the consumer will have an honest expert witness but the trader is "inside" the circle with his. The clever ones go several nuances better. There is a need for a change but there is as yet no sign of it - the media (Watchdog, etc. included, on averages) only occasionally latch onto a story if there are very many repeated examples or it is a no-news day. Whether your 4-fold overcharge is "winnable" is unfortunately uncertain, but most or all observers would agree you have been ripped off. Best of luck - in my opinion laying down the details as this thread suggests (above) and quietly asking the trader politely if he is not ashamed of himself might be the best (perhaps only) way to tackle this. There is no organisation out there to help you (I know from experience, over a far lager sum than yours) - don't go near the courts with this one without advice - but do speak to Trading Standards who will probably say they will make a note.

[Oneeyedvic]

Okay, spoken to my legal manager as well.....

Sludge is inaccurate (as zmudge will be delighted to learn).......

Even though you have had parts of the contract (namely offer and acceptance) fulfilled, your contract with the company is not made until you have 'certainty'. This did not happen until price came into question. AT this point you have complained, and 'rejected' the contract.

If a service has been provided the legislation (Sale of goods and services) provides that it must be provided with reasonable care and skill, within a reasonable time and if no price has been agreed for a reasonable charge.

 

Yo udo have full rights in this, regardless of what previous posters have said. As I say, it may be difficult/ costly and Judges (as Karl says) can be erratic. Noone wants to go to court, however, you will find (in all proability) the law is on your side.

[zmudge]

Thanks, Oneeyedvic, that is a very valuable answer. Fancy getting your legal manager in, now we really have a proper authority. So, if I can just sum it up for camille, Miss Zippy and me, you and your legal manager are saying that where there is no certainty there is no contract so camille can reject the shower but keep the rest of the work and then under the distance selling regulations 2000 she can tell the plumber to come and take the shower out and keep it himself as she is not going to pay through the nose for it and when it comes to paying anyway the rights are all on camille's side and she only has to pay what she herself thinks is reasonable and the plumber can go hang. Thats very good, I did not know that myself, I thought it was something like Tesco's where if they ask 25p for a pint of milk that's what you had to pay, but obviously from what you and your legal manager say plumber's are different and you just tell them what you are going to give them for their goods and work. I did not know that and it is very important information. May I ask you one last question, please, camille has obviously been put to a lot of trouble over this and now the plumber has to come back and take out the rejected shower there will be more mess and upset, can she charge the plumber for this, perhaps ask for �100 for clearing up after the wretched man? Your answer will be very much appreciated. Bless you, you are an angel xxxxxxxxxxx 

[camille79]

thank you all so much for your answers, they have helped me understand the situation much more clearly.  What I really wanted was a new invoice from them before I wrote a cheque but if this is not forthcoming then I think I'll do as suggested and pay for the time and offer to replace the shower installed. 

Thanks once again, I usually use Answerbank for much more trivial queries but this has been really useful and it's good to be pointed towards the more useful pieces of legislation!

[Oneeyedvic]

Unfortunately, she can't ask the plumber for any cash no!

 

Also, in Tesco's the price of 25p is an offer to sell - you don't have to pay that price at all - if you ever feel like having fun (and don't mind getting barred), take a full shopping full of trolley to the checkout, and when it comes to �65.93, say, I'll offer you �60 for cash - the checkout assistant will get very flustered and think you are joking - my old law teacher reckoned he got away with it - personally I doubt it!

Essentially, by paying the full amount, you are accepting the contract - if you haven't agreed a price, you can't have a valid contract!

[Miss Zippy]

I�d disagree with your legal manager Oneeyedvic. Price is often the last contractual term to be determined in a contract, particularly commercial contracts and it does not mean that a valid contract does not exist. UK law (legislation and common law) does not actually state anywhere that a price to be paid for an item has to be fair � it�s up to the parties to determine the price to be paid and if someone wants to pay over the odds for a good or service, or if someone wants to sell their goods/ service for a much lower sum than it�s worth, that�s up to them.  However, I always say �if you don�t ask, you don�t get� so even if, strictly speaking, you might not have a leg to stand on in legal terms, there�s certainly no harm trying to negotiate a reduction.  Also, I don�t think the Distance Selling Regs would apply to this type of contract; the Regs are really aimed at organised distance selling and aren�t intended to catch these kind of contracts where you�re merely calling a plumber in response to, say, an ad in Yellow Pages. However, there�s certainly no harm in trying to bluff the plumber by pretending you know your rights. Zmudge, you�re not related to Sludge are you?  

[Oneeyedvic]

Why must I constantly have to be questioned????

I refer you to the trading standards website link:

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/wirral/ebap/ecommerce06.htm

Any goods supplied under contracts governed by the above legislation must conform to the implied terms mentioned under the Sale of Goods Act. The service element of the contract must be carried out:

With reasonable care and skill
For a reasonable price (unless a price has been agreed)
Within a reasonable time (unless time is made of the essence i.e. when a date has been agreed at the time the contract was made.)

 

I hope this helps.

[Sludge]

The contract price for this transaction was valuation after completion by the plumber. Where goods have been supplied and fixed and appropriated by the buyer as has happened in this case the buyer must pay a reasonable price for them. What is a reasonable price is a question of fact. Account must be taken of the size, location and expense of the plumber's premises and the quality of the service offered when calculating a reasonable price. Accordingly my second posting from the top above exhibits that the �260 is a reasonable price.