Why have BT kept changing the numbers for higher rate calls?

[David H]

When the exchanges were last streamlined, making all non-geographic landline calls 08 and 09 the higher rate numbers were 0870 at around 10p a minute and 0845 at 5p (compared to something less for all national calls at the time). Since then BT have changed the charges for them and in some cases included in free packages, but shifted the same options for companies to 0871 for 10p a minute and 0844 for a flexible rate. This must cost the companies a fortune changing all their paperwork and the customer does not benefit as they still have to pay over the odds so the companies can earn money per minute they call, so why did BT or Ofcom bother to mess around with the numbers while keeping the identical system? (nb Virgin charge two or three times more for these calls than BT as well so makes a vast difference when using them).

[SpikeyBush]

Ask them for a geographic number (for example 020 xxxx xxxx or 01234 xxx xxx) and use that instead. Your inclusive minutes on a landline or mobile contract will mean these calls are free up to your limit.

[Buenchico]

To the best of my knowledge, BT and Ofcom haven't changed any numbers. BT has (as I understand it) simply given companies the option to change their numbers.

0870 numbers provide a fixed amount of income per minute of incoming calls, whereas 0871 numbers provide a flexible income (with the business deciding the rate to be charged). Many businesses have decided to migrate from 0870 numbers to 0871 instead. That wasn't possible before 087 numbers were designated as 'premium rate' in 2009, placing them under the control of PhonepayPlus, which is the regulator.

Chris

[johnny37]

Doi esnt answer the question but I thought I would put in my two pentsworth. I subscribe to talktalk plus. There is no charge for 0845 and 0870. I notice companies are now using 0844. If you look closely there is sometimes a landline number somewhere on the documentation for which I also get free. Otherwise use website No To 0870 which can give an alternative landline number.

ps TalkTalk come in for some stick but I have always had a great service and they appear to be cheaper than the other providers. eg for an extra £3/£5 I get 100/300 minutes of calls to mobiles. Other goodies include free security which I am currently contracted to Norton for £35.

[old-wos-is-name]

Have you noticed that the ones that charge always give a load of old talk before telling you that they are recieving a prescedented number of calls and you will be put into a queue, they never ring straight through.

[jno]

find geographic numbers here

http://www.saynoto0870.com/

[Gizmonster]

You beat me to it jno lol :P

..... a VERY handy site that I always use when I need to call an 0845/0870 number, etc :)

[Psybbo]

Oh

[David H]

I always use alternatives if I can, but have since they began. But since BT did offer a cheap or free tariff on 0870 and 0845 (originally to allow local calls nationally, but retained when local call rates were scrapped and converted to revenue sharing) they simply opened the two alternatives so companies could keep the money flowing in while customers gained virtually nothing as nearly all companies dropped 0870 for one of the others. To me you either allow premium numbers or not, but don't just fiddle with the charging system and earn the customers nothing. This route just seems to have caused the maximum confusion and expense all round.

[dave80]

Everything changes again in the next few months.

0870 were "national rate" from landlines until 2005. They were simply "revenue share" after that (most people call 01 and 02 for up to one hour for nothing in inclusive minutes, so a national call is effectively "free"). Ofcom removed revenue share from 0870 in 2009.

Mobile operators charge 30 to 40p per min for calls to 0870 numbers.

0845 were "local rate" until 2005. In 2005, landline operators stopped charging a lower rate for local 01 numbers compared to national 01 numbers. "Local rate" no longer exists. That's not a problem, because at the same time, calls up to one hour are now inclusive to all 01 and 02 numbers anywhere in the country from most landlines. After 2005, 0845 numbers are simply "revenue share". Approx 2 p per min is passed on.

BT expected Ofcom to remove revenue share from 0845 and made both 0870 and 0845 calls inclusive in 2009. Ofcom changed their mind, so BT now subsidises calls to 0845 numbers.

0844 numbers are revenue share. From a BT line the call price is set by the business you called, by their choice of 0844 phone number. There's various revenue share levels from 1p to 5 p per minute. BT are not allowed to make a profit so pass 100% of the call price onwards. Other operators add to the call price to make a profit. 0844 numbers are never inclusive.

Mobile operators charge 30 to 40 p per min for these calls. 0844 numbers ran out so 0843 is now also in use with the same rules as 0844.

0871 numbers are revenue share up to 10 p per minute. Again, BT can't add to the call price, but other operators do. 0872 is a new range with the same rules as 0871.

In the next few months, 0870 will return to revenue share. 0870 and 0845 will no longer be inclusive.

Businesses using 084 and 087 numbers for customer service will have to move to 034 and 037 numbers. These are free in inclusive minutes from landlines and mobiles. If you have to pay something for the call to an 03 number, the cost will be no more than calling an 01 or 02 number.

Where a business continues to use an 084 or 087 number, they will have to declare the revenue share premium that is built into the call cost. With the exception of 0870 since 2009 (and that exeption is ending soon) ALL 084 and 087 numbers are revenue share numbers. The premium is up to 5 p per minute for 084 numbers and up to 10 p per minute for 087 numbers.

Look out for "unbundled tariffs" for non-geographic numbers and for the Consumer Rights Directive.

[David H]

They are absolutely mental and you'd think this was a banana republic in the early days of telephones rather than Britain in the 21st century.

Do they not realise by switching which numbers pay and which don't every few years the majority of businesses who want to continue raking it in pay almost as much to change all their stationery and phone equipment to the latest ripoff number and then build it into their other charges?

Surely Ofcom should know this, and either they allow revenue sharing and stick with 0870 and 0845 forever or ban it and make them all the price of normal calls. I'm on Virgin and all 084 and 087 numbers are charged at 10p a minute with no exceptions.

[dave80]

The problem is that if revenue sharing is banned from 0845 and 0870 numbers, that still leaves the confusion that 0845 and 0870 are one type of number and 0844 and 0871 are a different type of number.

Companies continue to call all of these numbers "local rate" and "national rate". This hasn't been true for 0845 and 0870 numbers since 2005. It has NEVER been true for 0844 and 0871 numbers.

It was a mistake to remove revenue share from 0870 as that did not benefit mobile users.

Ofcom realised their mistake and so didn't go ahead with removing revenue share from 0845. BT having jumped the gun too early currently subsidise 0845 calls.

0845 revenue share is unregulated and varies from provider to provider. Ofcom will standardise the 0845 revenue share in the same way as 0844 numbers, so that for any particular number it will be the same for all callers. Likewise for 0870 compared to 0871.

03 numbers fix all of the problems.

- 03 numbers do not allow revenue share.

- 03 numbers cost the same as 01 and 02 numbers.

- 03 numbers are usable in inclusive minutes, and this applies to both mobiles and landlines.

Users of 084 and 087 numbers will be forced to move to 03 numbers by the Consumer Rights Directive. One digit changes in the move: 08ab cde fghi becomes 03ab cde fghi.

It will be illegal to use 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service and other such functions.

Where users continue using 084 and 087 numbers, "unbundled" tariffs will force the disclosure of the "premium" their number attracts. It will also reveal the profit that landline and mobile operators add.

Mobile operators often charge 30 to 45 p per minute for 084 numbers with only 1p to 5 p revenue shares and for 087 numbers with only 5p to 10p revenue shares. Prices will reduce as that fact is laid bare.

The changes will bring greater clarity:

- calling 084 and 087 is going to cost you money (and users of those numbers will have to declare that fact)

- calling 03 numbers is either inclusive or the same price as calling 01 and 02

Businesses will be judged by their action, or lack of it, in implementing 03 or sticking with 084 and 087.

Calling 03 numbers to contact most businesses should quickly become routine, and calling 084 or 087 the rare exception.

With the revenue share laid bare by the called party, and the landline provider or mobile operator profit margin revealed by your phone company, it will be impossible for businesses to attempt to describe 084 and 087 numbers as "local rate" or "national rate". They will clearly be "revenue share" and most businesses will no longer be able to justify their use.

It will be clear to all that 03 numbers are always cheaper to call.

03 numbers allow the same call queueing and stacking features as 08 numbers, so the ONLY motive for using 084 and 087 numbers will be MONEY - and the Consumer Rights Directive will block usage of 084 and 087 numbers for large numbers of businesses.

[dave80]

I don't know what price plan you are on, but you are completely mistaken that all 084 and 087 numbers cost 10 p per minute.