Is there a plumber who can help me, please?

[Bambiagain]

This is a bit of a strange one, I'm afraid, but I would appreciate some advice. It is a hypothetical case for a piece of fiction, and I want to get my facts right. If someone could help, could they please tell me a) whether it is feasible to create the situation I want and b) technical details of how it can occur.

The scenario is that person A lives in a flat, first floor conversion in a Victorian house (there is also a second floor, not affected). Water is found dripping into the downstairs flat, which person B finds early in the morning when A is out running - so A will have been out less than an hour, will have used the bathroom briefly but not the shower or bath, and will not at the time have noticed anything wrong. The dripping into the downstair flat could have started any time after B went to bed the night before. Can this have feasibly happened? And what can have caused it? It is winter, but not exceptionally cold, and the flat is heated. A nice little flood in A's bathroom would be good, but could occur when helpful person C comes along and finds the problem (ie he pulls a pipe apart or something).

Thanks in advance.

[The Builder]

Well, this shouldn't be a problem, Bambi. I'll start with the premise that, with plumbing, many years of experience have taught me that anything is possible :o)

A common one is pipework under a basin....... a non-perfect connection that holds, but only until it gets kicked? Helpful C investigates, and the fitting comes apart.

One that Holmes would pick up on ....... connection just holds during the day when the mains pressure is medium (everybody's using water), but overnight, mains pressure rises considerably (few people using it)..... most problems occur then.

WC ........ old type, with an external overflow. Not uncommon for diy-ers to fail to run this to the outside properly (difficult to route sometimes). No problem for years ............ until ........... ballvalve or float in WC gets stuck or bungs up ................. water level rises ........... overflow not connected .......... flood. (Again, often ok during the day, but overnight pressure pushes it "over the top".)

Some to be going on with. I'll see if I can think of anything more imaginative.

[Bambiagain]

Brilliant! Thank you very much.

[mushroom25]

wow - although the building concerned was a collection of 1960s maisonettes rather than a victorian house, it's more or less what happened to my parents last christmas.

[Vicasso]

Not a plumber, but from experience :-)
1.The low level toilet was flushed.
2. The elderly inlet valve for toilet cistern failed to shut off completely when the cistern was full allowing water to continue to trickle in
3. The overflow pipe for the toilet cistern was blocked, and the cistern overflowed.
4. It seemed that the end of the overflow pipe on the outside of the house was accidentally 'kinked shut' a couple of years before when the toilet window was replaced and thus I had an accident just waiting to happen

Hope this helps

[Bambiagain]

Vicasso and Mushroom - thank you. Did this (if this happened upstairs) cause water to drip downstairs? And if so could it have been dripping for some time and only just come through the ceiling?

[Vicasso]

Yes, it was an upstairs toilet, and it did drip during the night. It did come through the ceiling, though not directly beneath the toilet as the water had crept along to the lowest point of the bathroom floor. It was not immediately obvious in the bathroom as the water had not crept out onto the floor but had stayed beside the wall alongside the boxed in pipework. It could have been much worse, but the toilet had been used several times during the night, without switching on the bathroom lights, and thus the cistern's emptying/refill/overflow cycle had taken place more than once.

[Bambiagain]

That sounds good (not for you in your real-life situation, of course) as I want there to be a definite and noticeable drip downstairs without being cruel enough to bring the ceiling down.

[The Builder]

Yes, most definitely, Bambi. In fact, if a leak was apparent immediately, it would save a lot of heartache. In practice, water can gather on the "top surface" of the ceiling below (in the floor void). This could go on for hours, especially in a Victorian house with lath & plaster ceilings, which are fairly thick. Eventually, the pool will overflow and travel. Obviously towards a lower point........ most often the light fitting. Because of the thick ceilings, it's not unknown for water to travel several feet from its "entry" point to its eventual exit.
This way, the pressure is taken off the ceiling, so it rarely brings the ceiling down right away. It could take days.

[Bambiagain]

Good. So either the toilet overflows and drips downstairs, or there is a leaky pipe under the basin. Would the former flood the floor where it is happening when it gets bad, or when someone investigates? Builder, you said the pipe could be dislodged when investigated - this could cause a flood of water before the supply is turned off, I presume. The pipe situation would need a plumber before the bathroom is useable again (which I need to happen) - and the kitchen as well if the pipes cannot be turned off in isolation. If it is the toilet, then am I right in thinking that just holding the ballcock up would stop the water coming through?

[snags]

I blame the stash of cocaine hidden in the cistern...

[Bambiagain]

Now why didn't I think of that one?

[Vicasso]

I meant to add that the dribble of water from the overflowing cistern was down the back of the cistern and out of sight. The top of the rear wall of the cistern had a small central section scooped out to facilitate getting a couple of fingers in help remove the cistern lid.

[The Builder]

1 toilet overflows ............ your choice, Bambi. It would depend on the floor covering. With bare floorboards, it could drip through a gap between boards, and not show very much at all until the damp patch spreads out.
With a vinyl covering, it could pool. If you'd like it to, a Victorian floor could easily not be level. Water could run across the vinyl to anywhere you like, and not be discovered for a while.

2 Pipe dislodged. Entirely up to your timescale. Yes, plumber eventually, but the leak, even after disturbing, could be as much or as little as you need. Helpful C could pull the pipe apart completely, then flood, then plumber.

3 Yes, holding up ballcock could stop the incoming flow if the valve simply wasn't seating properly......... or, it could have become completely defective, where it would not stop the flow whatever you did to it. Both are perfectly feasible.

[Bambiagain]

Thank you all. I have enough to construct something credible, at least. You've all been very helpful (well, most of you...).

[The Builder]

I reckon Snags has been in my local. I was investigating why a high-level cistern in the Gents wasn't flushing.
I found a pair of Calvin Kleins in there.............. someone must have had an "accident"................

[Bambiagain]

High level? They must have been desperate to get rid.