ChatterBank26 mins ago
Parking Tickets/ Cloned Plates.
Hoping somebody can help me here. I am retired, and want to help a friend of ours who doesn't have time to research this.
He has received 2 parking tickets from one of the London Borough Councils. Both on the same day, and within 2 hours of each other from 2 locations.
He hasn't been to London for many years, and when he does he goes on the train or coach which is cheaper and more convenient.
At the time of the alleged contraventions, he was at work in South Devon. He went to work in his car, and came home in it. The car was parked outside his workplace during his duties.
He has appealed the tickets, and has been refused, despite sending them documented proof that:
1. His car has several differences to the photographed car. Photos sent.
2. He was at work. Not in London. He has sent proof of this from his employer with clocking in and out records. He had his car keys in his pocket whilst he was at work.
3. He disputed how, when the later ticket was issued in North London at 12.04 he was amazingly able to clock out in South Devon at 15.59.
4. He hadn't got a clue where these streets were, or how to drive to them, and had no reason to do so, or to be in London at all.
In short, he has sent more than a reasonable explanation, with proof, that he was not in London at the time, and that although the local authority have issued tickets to a car of similar make and model, it is not HIS car.
We THINK what has happened, is that he had the vehicle up for sale at the time, on the Ebay website. He VERY FOOLISHLY did not blank out his registration plates on the advert photos, and it seems pretty obvious that some scroat has taken advantage of this and cloned the plates.
So as many suggestions as possible please, as to how he can extricate himself from this mess. The local authority are doing all the usual 'threatening' letter stuff. If not paid, county court, bailiffs etc etc.
I have told him that he should just simply write to them again, and tell them that, in his view, he has sent sufficient proof that he did not commit the offences, and that the car they ticketed might have been a similar model to HIS car, but it was not HIS car. So the tickets are not relevant to him.
It seems that somebody at this council is just being bloody minded, but they are saying that just because he was at work in Devon, doesn't mean that somebody else had the use of the car. Our friend has NEVER allowed anyone else to drive his car. He has NEVER given anyone else the keys or authority to drive it.
HELP please. Thanks.
He has received 2 parking tickets from one of the London Borough Councils. Both on the same day, and within 2 hours of each other from 2 locations.
He hasn't been to London for many years, and when he does he goes on the train or coach which is cheaper and more convenient.
At the time of the alleged contraventions, he was at work in South Devon. He went to work in his car, and came home in it. The car was parked outside his workplace during his duties.
He has appealed the tickets, and has been refused, despite sending them documented proof that:
1. His car has several differences to the photographed car. Photos sent.
2. He was at work. Not in London. He has sent proof of this from his employer with clocking in and out records. He had his car keys in his pocket whilst he was at work.
3. He disputed how, when the later ticket was issued in North London at 12.04 he was amazingly able to clock out in South Devon at 15.59.
4. He hadn't got a clue where these streets were, or how to drive to them, and had no reason to do so, or to be in London at all.
In short, he has sent more than a reasonable explanation, with proof, that he was not in London at the time, and that although the local authority have issued tickets to a car of similar make and model, it is not HIS car.
We THINK what has happened, is that he had the vehicle up for sale at the time, on the Ebay website. He VERY FOOLISHLY did not blank out his registration plates on the advert photos, and it seems pretty obvious that some scroat has taken advantage of this and cloned the plates.
So as many suggestions as possible please, as to how he can extricate himself from this mess. The local authority are doing all the usual 'threatening' letter stuff. If not paid, county court, bailiffs etc etc.
I have told him that he should just simply write to them again, and tell them that, in his view, he has sent sufficient proof that he did not commit the offences, and that the car they ticketed might have been a similar model to HIS car, but it was not HIS car. So the tickets are not relevant to him.
It seems that somebody at this council is just being bloody minded, but they are saying that just because he was at work in Devon, doesn't mean that somebody else had the use of the car. Our friend has NEVER allowed anyone else to drive his car. He has NEVER given anyone else the keys or authority to drive it.
HELP please. Thanks.
Answers
1 to 13 of 13
There is a huge “justice gap” in the matter of parking tickets issued by local authorities. If the authority carries out its threat to pursue the debt via the County Court, that court will not examine the evidence surrounding the actual alleged offence. All it will do is ensure that the ticket was properly issued and that the Council’s appeals process...
15:22 Fri 19th Jul 2013
Whenever someone believes that their car's number plates might have been cloned the very FIRST thing they should do is to report it to the police. That will mean that:
(a) police in the relevant area (i.e. London in this case) can look out for the 'fake' vehicle, so that it can be taken off the road (reducing the chances of more parking tickets landing on the doormat of the innocent motorist) ; and, more importantly,
(b) that a crime reference number will be provided.
Council parking control staff are naturally suspicious of someone who tells them that their car's plates have been cloned but the provision of a crime reference number (showing the police have become involved) is likely to convince them of the truth. (It should also help to convince the county court if the parking authorities decided to pursue the matter through the courts).
Chris
(a) police in the relevant area (i.e. London in this case) can look out for the 'fake' vehicle, so that it can be taken off the road (reducing the chances of more parking tickets landing on the doormat of the innocent motorist) ; and, more importantly,
(b) that a crime reference number will be provided.
Council parking control staff are naturally suspicious of someone who tells them that their car's plates have been cloned but the provision of a crime reference number (showing the police have become involved) is likely to convince them of the truth. (It should also help to convince the county court if the parking authorities decided to pursue the matter through the courts).
Chris
Yes first port of call should definately be the police, second should be the DVLA
I would request a new registration from the DVLA which would then allow the original to be marked up on police computers and hopefully be picked up on an automatic numberplate recognition system.
A word of caution - I did hear of a similar case where someone went to the police only to be told 'Very sorry sir - yours is the stolen vehicle' and the car was impounded.
I'm sure that's not the case here especially if he's owned it for a while but there you go.
New registration required pronto I'd say
I would request a new registration from the DVLA which would then allow the original to be marked up on police computers and hopefully be picked up on an automatic numberplate recognition system.
A word of caution - I did hear of a similar case where someone went to the police only to be told 'Very sorry sir - yours is the stolen vehicle' and the car was impounded.
I'm sure that's not the case here especially if he's owned it for a while but there you go.
New registration required pronto I'd say
Further to my question and the replies received. My friend's car had a tax disk at all times, however the car in London had no tax disk showing, so I am unable to follow that up. I believe that the council themselves should have reported this fact to the police at that theMany thanks to replies so far.
why should the council report the 'crime'?
the council won't report it, as as far as they are concerned at the moment it is just a unsubstantiated claim and you are just trying to get out of a ticket.
i believe you, but they must have heard all manner of claims in the past and probably heard this one a million times before too.
there is no real evidence of your claim so far - you just have a lot of circumstantial supporting evidence, but nothing that is concrete - if there was they would not be disputing it.
you should report it yourself, and get a proper investigation... because even if they were to wipe these tickets... it will happen again...and again.
the fact that you have involved the police will fall in your favour too... as many when spinning a yarn will crumble when things get more serious ... and realise its not worth it for a few parking tickets.
it will show that you totally believe you have a case and are not afraid of being 'found out' and getting into trouble... because if you are lying, they will know
the council won't report it, as as far as they are concerned at the moment it is just a unsubstantiated claim and you are just trying to get out of a ticket.
i believe you, but they must have heard all manner of claims in the past and probably heard this one a million times before too.
there is no real evidence of your claim so far - you just have a lot of circumstantial supporting evidence, but nothing that is concrete - if there was they would not be disputing it.
you should report it yourself, and get a proper investigation... because even if they were to wipe these tickets... it will happen again...and again.
the fact that you have involved the police will fall in your favour too... as many when spinning a yarn will crumble when things get more serious ... and realise its not worth it for a few parking tickets.
it will show that you totally believe you have a case and are not afraid of being 'found out' and getting into trouble... because if you are lying, they will know
No - There's a licensing system that if your car is not Taxed/Insured and not under SORN starts by sending you a threatening mail telling you you have x days to sort it out followed by increasing levels of enforcement.
Assuming that your friends car is taxed and insured that number plate will come up as taxed and insured.
That is after all one very good reason why people clone cars !
Assuming that your friends car is taxed and insured that number plate will come up as taxed and insured.
That is after all one very good reason why people clone cars !
There is a huge “justice gap” in the matter of parking tickets issued by local authorities.
If the authority carries out its threat to pursue the debt via the County Court, that court will not examine the evidence surrounding the actual alleged offence. All it will do is ensure that the ticket was properly issued and that the Council’s appeals process has been properly undertaken. It will not consider any evidence offered to that appeal.
The only time the actual evidence is examined is at the appeal (which, in my view, is not a “properly convened tribunal”). If this matter came before a Magistrates’ court (as a criminal offence might) there is little doubt in my mind that there would be sufficient evidence provided by your friend to cast considerable doubt on the allegations. It is true that each of the matters he has raised does not prove his innocence. For example, the fact that he can prove he was at work does nothing to prove where his car was. But all of his testimony taken together I believe would be sufficient for an acquittal.
However, under the process he faces he can only place this evidence before a parking adjudicator and not before a court. It is an absolute scandal that not only does he have to prove his innocence (the matter of his guilt being somewhat a “given”) but that he is not afforded the proper opportunity to do so.
If the authority carries out its threat to pursue the debt via the County Court, that court will not examine the evidence surrounding the actual alleged offence. All it will do is ensure that the ticket was properly issued and that the Council’s appeals process has been properly undertaken. It will not consider any evidence offered to that appeal.
The only time the actual evidence is examined is at the appeal (which, in my view, is not a “properly convened tribunal”). If this matter came before a Magistrates’ court (as a criminal offence might) there is little doubt in my mind that there would be sufficient evidence provided by your friend to cast considerable doubt on the allegations. It is true that each of the matters he has raised does not prove his innocence. For example, the fact that he can prove he was at work does nothing to prove where his car was. But all of his testimony taken together I believe would be sufficient for an acquittal.
However, under the process he faces he can only place this evidence before a parking adjudicator and not before a court. It is an absolute scandal that not only does he have to prove his innocence (the matter of his guilt being somewhat a “given”) but that he is not afforded the proper opportunity to do so.
You must go through the due process of informal appeal, formal appeal following receipt of the Notice to Owner and if/when this is rejected, appeal to the parking adjudicator. Doing nothing is unfortunately not an option, otherwise one day you will find your car clamped by a Bailiff. Yes I know it sucks, but you have no choice. It is important to keep records and do everything you have to do by the due date. Do not rely on promises made by unknown council employees during 'phone calls. The guys and gals on pepipoo.com are very helpful.
"He has appealed the tickets, and has been refused....."
So, as I said, that is that then. Seniorcit's friend has exhausted the one and only right of appeal he has and his appeal has been dismissed. The County Court will not examine the evidence surrounding the offence. They are only interested in enforcing the debt once they are satisfied it has been properly accrued. And it's an absolute scandal that motorists are effectively fined without having the opportunity to have the matter put before a proper court.
So, as I said, that is that then. Seniorcit's friend has exhausted the one and only right of appeal he has and his appeal has been dismissed. The County Court will not examine the evidence surrounding the offence. They are only interested in enforcing the debt once they are satisfied it has been properly accrued. And it's an absolute scandal that motorists are effectively fined without having the opportunity to have the matter put before a proper court.
The due process is Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) served. Owner makes an informal appeal. Informal appeal is refused (almost certainly). More informal appeals may be submitted until the Notice to Owner (NTO) s served. Once the NTO is served the owner makes a formal appeal. If this is rejected then the owner has the opportunity to appeal the case to the parking adjudicator. This is where things usually end appeal wise however judicial review is an (expensive) option.
So where are we in the appeals process?
(BTW this is not an 'offence' as all London boroughs parking enforcement are decriminalised )
So where are we in the appeals process?
(BTW this is not an 'offence' as all London boroughs parking enforcement are decriminalised )
Hi. I am the original poster of this thread. I now have my own user name, as I was using my wife's.
My friend has had his tickets cancelled. He does not have to pay any fines at all.
There is a little known but useful piece of law involved. Councils will tell you that once an adjudicator has looked at the tickets, their decision is final and that no further appeal is allowed.
NOT SO. As with all British law, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Acting on legal advice, you should put (when you send in the appeal) that you reserve the right to defend yourself in a civil court should the appeal fail. The council cannot refuse or over rule this. It is your right in law to clear your name by whatever means you choose.
This is what we did. We drafted a reply to the Council advising them that if the appeal against the tickets had been unsuccessful, then we would exercise our right under law to take it to court, and claim for all costs, including travel, hotelloss of earnings etc etc.
The matter was dropped. May help someone else, but a BIG lesson learned from this was NEVER show your number plate when selling a car, because, as in our case, some scroat will take advantage.
It was handy having a family barrister who immediately saw this loophole. The councils have no legal footing to impose a 'no appeal' situation.
My friend has had his tickets cancelled. He does not have to pay any fines at all.
There is a little known but useful piece of law involved. Councils will tell you that once an adjudicator has looked at the tickets, their decision is final and that no further appeal is allowed.
NOT SO. As with all British law, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Acting on legal advice, you should put (when you send in the appeal) that you reserve the right to defend yourself in a civil court should the appeal fail. The council cannot refuse or over rule this. It is your right in law to clear your name by whatever means you choose.
This is what we did. We drafted a reply to the Council advising them that if the appeal against the tickets had been unsuccessful, then we would exercise our right under law to take it to court, and claim for all costs, including travel, hotelloss of earnings etc etc.
The matter was dropped. May help someone else, but a BIG lesson learned from this was NEVER show your number plate when selling a car, because, as in our case, some scroat will take advantage.
It was handy having a family barrister who immediately saw this loophole. The councils have no legal footing to impose a 'no appeal' situation.
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