If smacking doesn't work...

[simsfreq]

This is sort of carrying on from the topic "Yob Britain" but I felt it could start its own topic... anyway, my question.
If smacking doesn't work and teaches children that violence is the answer, how come some children nowadays are a lot more violent than children ever were in the days when a smack was common and thought nothing of by parents, teachers or children? I know not all children are mad delinquents, but it's a sad fact of modern life the amount that are. The whole issue of happy slapping, especially between kids themselves, reminds me of the story of Jamie Bulger. If I remember correctly his tormentors didn't get off scot-free with some counselling and five minutes on the "naughty step", they served their sentences as adults and quite rightly had to pay for what they did. Anyway, rant over, it's up to the rest of you now.

[Grunty]

I often find that things go wrong when we depart from the example set by nature.  Animals do not use adult reasoning to keep their young out of danger - they give them a quick cuff which teaches them the lesson.  (This has no connection at all with a beating).  Add to this the number of children who are left to rear themselves, apart from a weekly educational trip to Tesco where, not surprisingly, they have a lot of energy to use up.  A recent example of parents' opting out was the mother who complained bitterly that after several years at school, her child still could not use a knife and fork.

[flump1]

Oh Grunty you have hit a nerve with me! As  a specialist foster carer I used to mind children going through the criminal justice system aged between 10 and 17. I fostered over 30 in all. You would be surprised at how many of these children lacked the social skills of using cutlery.It was appalling. We were not allowed to smack these children ,only to berate by means of talking to them.

While I do not agree with smacking so hard it would leave a bruise, I do think a smart smack when needed is healthy. Within my family I ask the children where they would like the smack to be delivered on their hands or the backs of their legs. It is a great deterent as they don't want one at all !! If I have cause to I will smack a child ,but that is not often. It is not something a parent or guardian likes to do , it can sometimes hurt them more!  I get angry when adults use empty threats to children leaving the children feeling invinsible. I think that children need boundries for saftey and security and when they are crossed a smack is sometimes the only quick way to deal with it. I was smacked when I was a child , and I deserved every one !

The small minority bringing bad press to teenagers now are beyond smacking. If they had  had disipline when younger they might have respect and thought now,

[jake-the-peg]

Kids are more violent today?

I thoght the word Yob was victorian

Did I dream Mods and Rockers rioting on Bank Holidays? Were Teddy boys attacking cinema seats and each other with cut throat razors a fantasy?

How about these fifty-something paedophiles what sort of upbringing made them the men they are today?

I think your glasses are a touch rose-tinted

Should have gone to spec-Savers!

[Ward-Minter]

I think violence has worsened over the years.

A good smacking does a kid the power of good. I do not smack my kids simply due to the fact they have never warranted a sound thrashing. I certainly do not rule with an iron fist, its just they have been brought up to respect things.

With one at Military camp and the other at a school with discipline like Tenko, I know they are in good hands.

My eldest was given a twenty pound note on the Tube by an elderly woman for standing up for her. The others most of them immigrants and communists didn't even bat an eyelid. This woman probably assisted in WW2 to make this country German and French free.

 

My point is there is no respect for anything nowadays. Bring back National Service and the Headmasters slipper. Then and ONLY then we will be a nation to rise above the scum that befalls us everyday in this pathetic country run by social workers who give money to kiddy fiddlers and terrorists.

 

PS Hello spinchimp I am sure you will read this.

[MargeB]

Very interesting point, Grunty.

However (!) let's just put human beings back on a 'natural' footing.

-about 5 percent of men would be active rapists

-infanticide, especially by step parents, would be commonplace

-boundary disputes would be settled by murder

-a large number of men would have a very large number of female partners and would offer no help to their children

-a great number of geriatrics would be left to die uncared for

So....still on for a 'return to nature'?

[MargeB]

As far as smacking is concerned...fine in an ideal world. Great piece of conditioning, a little skelp on the bum. As long as the child knows that it's being smacked because it did something wrong and to discourage it. This is far far removed from (unfortunately) the majority of 'disciplining' I see, which is a pretty much out of control venting of a parents anger. This is why I'm keen on an absolute ban.

[kags]

The problem is that the vast majority of smackings ARE done in anger, it is a loss of control by the parent. So how will a law prevent that? I have rarely smacked my children, but whenever I have it has because I was scared by their behaviour or at the end of my tether.  And I have to say that although this loss of control is hardly to be applauded, I much prefer it that way than to have smacked my children in a pre-meditated and calm manner. That seems much more deplorable to me, and, in my opinion, is where the anti-smacking lobby falls down. Their arguement is that smacking done in anger is ineffective - probably right, but human beings are fallible and emotional beings - laws won't change that. And the people who abuse their children will continue to do it whatever the law says.

I don't think the occasional, timely smack makes a child violent if he/she is being brought up in a loving, respectful environment. Having parents who do not give the child their time and attention is the problem.

And I agree with what MargeB has said - is society really and truly more violent, or is it just better reported these days?

[Chessman]

The problem with smacking, is that you have to keep yourself under control, and there are some that can't.

The lack of discipline these days can be traced back to the start of the pc brigade, the youngsters nowadays, (not all), have no respect for other people or property, and believe its their divine right to do anything, or go anywhere.

Up to the mid seventies, children called adults Mr, Mrs, and Miss, and if they were a friend of the family, Uncle or Aunt, this thing of children calling adults by their first name, puts them on an equal footing, and is totally wrong,

[MargeB]

I think you're probably in a better position to comment, kags. However you're also outwith the government's target group for control because you've already weighed it up and have an intelligent insight into it. From my (ahem) experience, there is a fairly large group of parents who have a nebulous idea of 'being permitted to do something physical to discipline/control a child' and when the moment comes to do it, they have 'red mist' which reduces their desire/ability to gauge what is appropriate.

I find it quite a weird idea, the state intervening in the parent/child relationship, but ultimately the child's protection is paramount. We are also recently really understanding that childhood abuse can have extremely profound and lifelong consequences. Also, the extent of childhood physical abuse was previously vastly underestimated.

henyways, hope you're well.

[Ward-Minter]

Am I a church now, Mr. Peggy?

My view on Jaguar cars now they are not British and diesel are not really relevant here are they?

Alas smacking is and it sounds like you needed a dam good whacking when you were a kid to curb your wayward tongue.

Just to add relevance to this thread though, it is now actually illegal to hit children. Lawful chastisement used to be a defence to assault now it ain't.

[MargeB]

WM, These are children we are adults, there is a bodymass difference. When we hit them, they cannot fight back. If there is a place for striking a child, it requires (not kidding) an advanced knowledge of the child and of psychology to know when you would not be doing more harm than good (which is rarely).

[Gef]

"Spare the rod and spoil the child". True when I was a child, true when my children were young and still true today. I know that it is difficult, if not impossible, to find proof but I am convinced that the lack of manners, agressive behaviour etc shown by many young folk today is the result of a lack of discipline at home. Far too many namby-pamby parents out there today.

[jake-the-peg]

Ward-Minster You know what the point was. You should absolutely no respect for that Jag driver who you'd never met and didn't know and came round here bewailing the lack of respect in society "these days"

That's very relevant!

I think you should go back to motoring and appologise. - You might earn some respect 

[jake-the-peg]

I see you have

Shall we put it down to the difficulties of humour over the internet and move on? 

[Ward-Minter]

Well pegster I see you still insist I am a church. I have nothing whatsoever to apologise about. The Jag driver did not take offence anyway (check the thread).

 

As for respect that choice is yours. You bow to me or you don't. Either way I come off best. Always have, always will. I was fighting for this country when you were just a twinkle in ya daddy's eyes kiddo!!

 

MargeB I have taken your view on board but have the obvious point. I am proposing chastisement not physical assault of kids. The parents who really hit their kids hard are the same sick scum that would probably stub ciggies out on them. Abusers thats all. However, a firm and dominant slap to a kids a55 will not cause long lasting injury. There are so many people who got a shoeing at school and at home who haven't been "pyschologically" affected. Kids need to know right from wrong. A grounding or a telling off does not work.

 

Simple equation. Corporal punishment stops, discipline goes astray. Fact of life.

 

When I was a kid I got a thrashing from my dad, a thrashing at school (old fashioned public school though) and a thrashing on the rugby field when I messed up. Did me no harm at all and made me the man I am.

[nfn]

Ward-Minster, you have shown yourself as a racist and a bully! I would never smack my son except as a last resort. He has been smacked, on the bottom, when all warnings were ignored. I always feel guilty but never show it, as that would let him know that I was right to punish him. However, I have never struck out in anger and ALWAYS use the tried and tested threats of no playing with friends/favourtie tv progs/treats etc first.

AND, as for fighting for your Country. I have lost both friends and relatives in conflicts, Argentina, Belfast, Gulf - so please don't try and patronise me, I am as patriotic as the next guy, I just don't need to bully anyone to justify myself! Where did u serve?

[davver]

Hmm, there seems to be a 'discussion' carrying on here slightly off-topic.

Smacking: great, but it's essential that the child knows what he would be smacked for, and if he crosses that line then it must be made clear to him that he has crossed it and the punishment administered. A final warning has to be a final warning. My mother used to say she would count to three, then smack us if we hadn't stopped by then. It wasn't long before she only had to say, quietly, "One..." and we'd stop pretty sharpish!
Corporal punishment works well when done correctly. Unfortunately it all too often isn't.

[Ward-Minter]

nfn you seem to think i am a church aswell. Can people not even get my name right?

A bully eh?? Well at least i have never hit my children like you.

A racist eh??  errrrrrr when you see wife i find this rather funny. but hey ho and what with your initials being nf I  wonder if you are some subscription run. However I am intrigued has to how I have shown myself as a racist?? Strange.

Patronising you??? well i don't know you and certainly nothing was aimed at you. so whats up duck?

Where did I serve??? That's absolutely none of your business. Why the hell do you want to know??

PS By the way my kids don't rely on TV, I tend to take a more traditional middle-class role in parenting. You should try it, they may not be so naughty if you actually took them out instead.

 

simsfreq  I am sorry if you are still subscribed to this thread and read my defence to the rather irrelevant and futile ignorance that others insist on posting.