Safe travel on planes and trains - where is safest to sit?

[mkjuk]

I'm guessing on trains near the middle and facing away from the direction of travel - anyone know for sure where is safest to sit on planes and trains??

[kempie]

The departure lounge.

[Clanad]

... And on a more serious note... It's been demonstrated several times that the farther aft (rear) you sit on an aircraft the better your chances of survival in a crash. The rest of the aircraft begins to absorb the forward energy of the aircraft and, often, the complete tail section breaks off and further protects its occupants, especially in the case of fire. This would be enhanced by rear facing seats, but passengers don't like them. Good question, but pay attention to the flight attendants safety briefing! It would be nice to know for sure where the nearest emergency exit is if needed. Having said that, as a pilot for many more years than I'd like to think about, and many thousands of flight hours, I've never even come close to anykind of a crash...(Superior skills and all that, don'tcha know)...

[Loosehead]

And also Clanad, planes never reverse into mountains!

[Buenchico]

The safest place on a train is usually regarded as being near the front. In most accidents the leading coaches usually remain on the tracks or are only thrown slightly to one side. Trains involved in a crash often end up in a V-shaped configuration, with the centre coaches being thrown furthest, either horizontally or vertically. So, the centre coaches are generally regarded as the most dangerous.

Chris

[kempie]

In regard of the use of rearward facing seats (or lack thereof), although they would certainly act as a better brace in an emergency deceleration scenario (or crash!) they do not address the issue of loose debris hurtling into the passengers' faces.

Takeoff would also be a somewhat disconcerting experience.

Perhaps there is a better argument for replacing ineffectual lap-belts with more sturdy restraints, although I am aware that this is no easy feat due to the range of body size which must be catered for.

[Ethel]

I'm not sure I'd want to survive an aircrash.

A swift death may be the most painless.

[dzug]

There is one airline that has (or had) rearward facing seats. Not overly disconcerting. (RAF Flight Command)

They now fly tourists to the Falklands - anyone know if they still have the seats the 'wrong way?

[gary baldy]

I dont know why they bother with the charade of the safety procedure on planes with the life jackets and all that.
If a plane crashes it usually crashes in BIG way and no matter where you sit you are either gonna die or not (usually the former).
If a plane crashes into the ocean the least of your worries is getting a daft life jacket on!

[Clanad]

That's a misconception, I believe, garybaldy... there have been many successful "ditchings" where the aircraft landed in the water under controlled circumstances. In most cases, almost all passengers survived. It really is foolish, in my opinion, not to pay attention to the safety briefing rather than try to figure it out in the heat (no pun) of the moment... I'd advise against a fatalistic approach, knowledge is power, especially in emergency situations...

[gary baldy]

Love to see some examples of large jet aircraft ditching at sea Clanad and there being survivors!
Prove me wrong please!
Hundreds of tons of metal and highly combustable jet fuel hitting water at over 100 miles an hour. I dont think a bit of yellow plastic with a whistle and putting your head between your knees is going to save you.
Lets face it - if an aircraft comes into contact with something that isnt a lovely flat runway then its likely you are going to die!

[Clanad]

Well...
On the 16th of January 2002, a Boeing 737-300 belonging to an Indonesian Airline had both its engines flamed out - a term to describe that the jet engines had failed. It happened as it commenced its descend to 9000 feet through thunderous clouds that were filled with rain. In this accident, 23 people were injured in the plane carrying 54 passengers and a crew of 6. One stewardess died when she was drowned.
And these:
Tuninter Air, Flt. 1153, August 6, 2005, of the coast of Sicily, 39 occupants, 23 survivors, 59% survival rate
Aeroflot Tupolev 124, October, 1963, Neva river, 52 occupants, 52 survivors, 100% survival rate
ALM DC9, May 2, 1970, the Caribbean, 63 occupants, 40 survivors, 63% survival rate
Ethiopian Air Lines 767, November 23, 1996, off the Comoros Islands, 175 occupants, 45 survivors, 26% survival rate
Miami Air Lease Convair CV-340, December 4, 2004, Mall lake, Florida, 2 occupants, 2 survivors, 100% survival rate
Pan Am Flt. 943 Stratocruiser "Sovereign of the Skies", October 16, 1956, in the Pacific between Honolulu and San Francisco, 30 passengers and crew, 30 survivors, 100% survival rate
Though not a passenger plane, still relevant - Columbian AF C 130 Hercules, October 1982, en route between the Azores and Bermuda stayed afloat for 2 days.
Most people will probably remember that on November 23, 1996, an Ethiopian Airlines B-767 aircraft en route from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, to Nairobi, Kenya, was hijacked by three Ethiopian males. The aircraft carried 163 passengers and 12 crew members. It ran out of fuel and was only partially controllable, yet 52 of the passengers survived. Out of the 123 fatalities, many were found to have drowned (near the shore yet) after surviving the impact but unable to don and activate their life preservers...

[blue virgin]

I agree totally with Clanad (and as a licensed aircraft engineer I feel I am allowed to comment!). Just the first one that springs to mind as it was fairly recent. Ethiopian 767 ditched in sea after being hijacked and running out of fuel. 175 on board, and 50 survivors. There would have been more, however one wing went into the water before the other and the plane cartwheeled. Why? Because a hijacker was beating the captain over the head with a fire axe while he was trying to land the plane.

A quick scan of the transport aircraft written off worldwide since the start of 2000 shows that in the 23 ditching events, fatalities only occured in 7, and most of these were 1 or 2 people, not everyone on board.

As an aside. I really wish people would watch the safety demo. If I'm in a crash and you are in my way because you don't know what to do, I can assure you I'll be walking over you to the exit. I resent other peoples ignorance having possible consequences regarding my survival chances.

Sit in the back row. The tail will most likely break off and you'll be kept away from the burning wings. Of course, you'll probably never be in a crash, and sitting at the back will just mean you have to put up with sitting next to the toilets, more noise from the engines, and feeling the turbulence more than everyone else! Your choice!

[chazza]

According to the report by an expert on Richard and Judy last week, the safest place is above the wings as the seats tend to be more tightly attached there.

[Clanad]

Thanks, Blue Virgin! An aircraft engineer in the U.K. is analogous to our Aircraft and Powerplant (A & P) rated mechanics here in the U.S., are they not? An engineer here is the rapidly disappearing third seater on such venerable aircraft as the Boeing 727, older 747's, Douglas DC-8's and other such...Blue Skies and safe knuckles to you!

[gammaray]

Hmm Gary baldy are you finished digging that hole yet!!?

[gammaray]

Sorry I didn't mean all that to be enboldened!

[gary baldy]

You quote just 6 examples from the last 50 years where 'ditching' has had some survivors. How about showing a list of crashes from the last 50 years where aircraft have gone down and everyone died and then lets compare the two lists eh?
You cannot possibly argue (which i am trying to do) that if an aircraft comes into contact with something other than a runway then you are probably going to die.

[Clanad]

"Love to see some examples of a large jet aircraft ditching at seas, Clanad, and there being survivors. Prove me wrong please".. which is the question I addressed, garybaldy. If you'd like to alter the question, I'd be happy to address that one as well. Fact is, there are many more surviavable crashes than there are ones where everyone died. Do you remember United Airlines flight 232, a DC-10 aircraft that crashed after losing all flight controls at Sioux City, Iowa on May 24, 1991? I have, on more than one occasion, talked to the pilot Captain Al Haynes... yet there were many survivors, all of whom praised the cabin crew for the clear instructions. Fact is, there aren't many ditchings to discuss because they rarely happen even considering that long distance over water flights in two engine passenger jets are common place. The point I've tried to make is that the more information you have the better. As blue virgin stated, I hope your not the one in front of me when you didn't listen on how to eject the emergency exit or the idiot that pulls the lanyard on their life vest before trying to get out of the emergency exit, or the other idiot that fights there way back down the aisle to retrieve their computer bag while all else are exiting a burning fuselage... in my opinion...

[gammaray]

I don't like flying.

[blue virgin]

Chazza. Sorry to burst the bubble, but all of the passenger seats in an aircraft are secured the same. All to the same value, and all the same strength, regardless of where in the aircraft they are. Having worked on aircraft from 50 seat turboprops, through the Boeing family up to the 747, and even a short stint on Concorde, you can believe me. All that sitting over the wing gets you is less movement during turbulence, more noise from landing gear, hydraulic pumps, and other gubbins I'll not go into. Oh, and a big fire when that huge centre fuel tank below you ignites post crash sometimes. Unfortunately, most (if not all) so called "experts" that like to get their face on T.V or in the papers, seem to know little on the subject. The same 2 or 3 people are always quoted in the U.K, and people less knowlegeable on the subjuct just believe what they hear. Same rule as for everything else. Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see, when dealing with these people......

GaryBaldy: why not read my post? 23 ditching over the last 5 years. Fatalities on 7 of them. Not sure this fits into you "6 examples from the last 50 years" category. Having been in the airline industry for a while, I feel I can say with a little authority that "non normal" events happen on a regular basis. Planes run off the end of runways, land on taxyways, land in fields, on roads, engines fail, emergency landings are made in unsuitable places, the list goes on and on. The reason you don't know about them is because they are not newsworthy, as nobody gets killed or seriously injured.

Your logic is flawed, your knowledge on this subject has gaping holes, and I might suggest to you that perhaps you conceede that people with more knowledge and experience in this are may know more than you, instead of blindly digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself...............