Contract Change

[donetello1]

As a follow up to my redundancy question.The firm has offered us a move to thier other service side,this will mean swapping from four ten hour days three nights out to five eight hour ones four nights out.They also want to buy three days extra holiday days built up at the last firm.(TUPE) to present firm.A one off payment has been offered for the three days hols.I was informed today of the proposed change by e-mail a letter to follow,but have only been given till the 14th to reply.

[Maydup]

Sounds pretty regular to me. Only you can decide between this and the redundancy package if there is such an option.

If you take the TUPE route your length of service is protected and you at least have a job. But if it doesn't suit you to work the new regime, you will have to resign and will have lost the redundancy offer.

[donetello1]

Bit of a misunderstanding,I was tuped over from the previous firm to the one now struggling for work.This previous firm is where I accrued an extra 3 days hols.I thought a longer period of time to decide might be allowed.Then if none of us want to accept thier offer what would happen.Sorry for the confusion.

[boxtops]

We're in a redundancy situation at the moment and people are literally being given a few days to apply for jobs or to make decisions - it's not unusual. The company will do everything it can to mitigate eventual redundancy - if 51% of our job description fits, they'll try to match us into it.

[donetello1]

So if we decide not to take the new contract we are basically out without the redundancy needing to be paid ?.Or what happens if someone still has to go a couple of months into agreeing a new contract ? Would we be entitled to what we Would have had under the old contract,or is that written off ?.

[buildersmate]

You can ask for a trial of the alternative job - particularly as this alternative involves a pretty fundamental change to your employment terms (hours of work). A month would not be unreasonable in my opinion, but there is no statute that says a month. GET IT IN WRITING if you ask and they agree to this.
If the job is not acceptable to you now, or after you do the trial the job is not acceptable (use the reason that it has involved a great shift in your domestic arrangements - you were willing to give it a go, but it just doesn't work), the the redundancy should remain an option for you. GET THIS IN WRITING too.

[donetello1]

Thanks Buildersmate,I'll put this to them and see what response I get,I personally think they are looking for ways to get rid of someone at no cost.Thanks to Boxtops and Maidup for also taking the time to answer.

[buildersmate]

Here's some stuff about employers offering alternative employment to redundancy. The month I said has more validity than I thought - the employer should offer a four week trial. Only undertake the trial if you really think the variant hours could work for you. Make sure you reject the job before the four weeks are up, if it doesn't work for you.
https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/suitable-alternative-employment

[donetello1]

Thanks Again Buildersmate,have read through those pages some good information.They have offered what I consider a small amount to buy my extra 3 days holidays off me.They apparantly want to buy these so if we accept thier new contract we go on to 20 days and 8 stats.The major issue is going back to four nights a week away from home,and a possibility of several weeks away abroad at a time.My sons just got a job and is moving away,so my wife will also be on her own alot of the time.Jobs are hard to find at the moment though,so a trial my be the only option.

[buildersmate]

The business about 'buying' the holiday entitlement off you is a negotiation and it is separate from the redundancy issue (though it is linked of course, because the company has no need to buy holiday from those made redundant). If I had been in their shoes, I would have dealt with the redundancy first, then sought to negotiate the but-out of holiday from those left in employment at the end.
Every man/woman has a price, but I would have thought a buy-out equal to the value of the holiday for 5 years (i.e. 15 days pay) would be reasonable. Five years is a reasonable average length of employment. How are they proposing to pay this? - I don't think it is salary - it is a payment in recognition of a change in contract - and hence should be paid gross without deduction of tax or NI - not sure about this Tony Wiltshire many have a view.

[donetello1]

Buildersmate thanks,I have only had an e-mail at the moment proposing the job swap details,it just states a one off payment to be made for the 3 days.I'm not even sure why they would want to buy these,unless they think the others wll complain about getting less days.We have been given while the 14th to decide and have not recieved the paperwork yet.The email just states the changes I've listed in OP.The going onto 5 days 40 hours from 4 days 37.5 hours and the holiday issue is to bring us into line with existing staff.It's been ongoing now since last October,with we are told thier solicitor making all the decissions.

[donetello1]

It appears they are arranging a meeting for next week to discuss the changes.But say that they can't tell us now how much we are entitled to if it does end in a redundancy.The only reason I can see is if we have a trial period and don't like it,they can alter the amount they would have offered had it been a first choice for us.Ie no other positions to go to within the company.

[buildersmate]

This is starting to sound like a 'divide and conquer' tactic. Really the best thing for me to do is to refer you to the whole of the Government's own advice on redundancy here - you may have already looked at the whole thing as I referred you to the 'trial job alternative' bit earlier.
https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/overview
You can work out your statutory redundancy and notice period from this and other sites - it depends on your age and length of employment. That, of course, is the statutory amount and it is very common for decent companies to pay more (often very much more) than these minimums.
What you and the employer are currently involved in is the 'consultation' stage. The consultation should be individual to you, and this is where the 'alternative job' scenario should be addressed.
I think it is perfectly reasonable (though I am unsure of the legal obligation by the employer) that at the end of this stage you are given a letter that says something like:
1) you are under notice of redundancy and if redundancy should occur the date of termination will be X (at least your notice period - one week per full year of employment up to a maximum of 12)
2) you and us have agreed that there may be alternative role and you have agreed to undertake a trial of 4 weeks
3) if at the end of this trial you reject the role, clause 1) will apply
4) if at the end of four weeks you take the job, there new T&Cs will be [etc etc - including the new hours).
That's the way I think they should do it, but you could check what ACAS helpline has to say.
In other words, I don't think they can mess around denying you the right to know what redundancy payment would apply until the end of the trial. The consultation should determine what offer is on the table to you.
Finally bear in mind that the notice period IS likely to be bound up in your period under which you trial the new job. It is worth finding out whether, if you take the package on offer now (no trial job), they are asking you work out your notice, or whether they would be paying you off. The reason why this make a difference to you is that you will not pay tax or NI on money paid in lieu of notice. Of course (you are proably know this also) you don't pay tax or NI on redundancy payments either (up to £30k, in case there are any pedants monitoring my answers).

[donetello1]

Buildersmate,once again thank you for your time for answering the post and the useful information,it is greatly appreciated.I've worked out from the gov site basic payment,but it would be nice for the firm to tell us now and not after we decide what we are going to do how much they are going to pay us.The meeting is Tuesday in Scotland I've been asked to travel up but empty my van Monday as they need it,we are based in Sheffield.

[donetello1]

Attended the individual meetings,we were told the solicitor should have been present to answer any questions,but was called away for some reason.Again very limited answers were given,Basically told us 1.4 people had to go,or take on the other positions offered with the new terms.I mentioned the 4 week trial period and they said they had not been told about this,and that they would need to consult the solicitor yet again.This stopped the proceedings with this again.On the holiday subject I put forward the 5 weeks payment which they said was ridiculous,They would pay that amount but it would need to be deducted from my annual salary,which means I would be losing out as it would be a one off payment but I would be that amount down every year.It seems they know nothing and have totally left this in the solicitors hands.So after a 14 hour day we are still no further forward.

[buildersmate]

I agree it seems that way (that the managers know very little about employment law).
In all the dealings I've had with employment issues, I've never contemplated having the company's legal representative there to answer employees questions. Sure, most employers seek legal advice about the legalities of what they are trying to change, before and during the process.
Remember to keep written notes of the meetings you are attending.

[buildersmate]

What do they mean they would pay that amount (buy-out of holidays) but it would be deducted from salary? That seems to mean the change is effected with no compensation for the change provided by the employer.
This discussion is surely about the employer wanting to change the terms of the contract to reduce your holiday entitlement by 3 days per annum. There is no fixed solution to this, it is a negotiation. What I was suggesting was that a buy-out for ever by paying the employee for the next five years of loss would be a good start point. One might have to negotiate it back to 4 or 3, but they seem to be offering nothing in return.

[donetello1]

The buyout of the holidays was an offer from them for the 3 extra days to bring us into line with the other engineers.The offer for the three days was a one off payment of approx 4.5 days.I thought as you advised a fair amount would be 15 days,at this they said they would go to that amount but it would be deducted from the small wage increase that we had been given to again bring us into line with existing personal.So x amount would be paid to me,but it would mean the All following years pay would be short by that amount.I said I would listen to a compromise figure,but again was met with we will consult the solicitor Friday and advise you of any results.

[donetello1]

Buildersmate many thanks,they have agreed to pay the 15 days to me for the holidays,and thier solicitor has confirmed the four week trial is indeed allowed in this situation.They are forwarding a new contract next week,which I will look over.Again many thanks so far,wil be back after I've seen the paperwork.

[buildersmate]

Very good so far, and full marks on your negotiating skills.
I'm still tracking your answers.

[donetello1]

Had a new contract to look at,only changes are as mentioned.There is no mention of the four weeks trial period though,does this need to be in hard copy ?.Reading on the GOV site you have posted this is only required if training and an extension to the four weeks is agreed.Apparantly we will be paid the holiday pay for the lost days in our next months wage,this is taxed and also NI prone.Thanks for your assistance so far.