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job seekers allowance after self-employment
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I have been a taxi driver in Barnstaple, Devon for over 5 years, firstly as an employee and then, as a self-employed driver for the same company,driving the same company car, doing the exact same job for exactly the same income. This was not a personal choice but a company policy change.
Eighteen months later and I have been laid off because business is quiet and I find myself not entitled to contribution based job seekers allowance because my self employed contributions do not count ( a fact that I wasn't aware of ) and not entitled to income based job seekers allowance because my partner earns a little over the limit. Quite apart from the small help in income that belive me we could do with this has ment that I am also not entitled to other practical help that those in receipt of this benefit get.
The most frustrating is that I am attempting to get an office based job, which is something I used to do before I had my son 11 years ago, and I would like to get my skills up to date but I do not qualify for subsidised courses that I would get if I were in receipt of JSA. I am taking the European Computer Drivers License course which comes in two halves, in fact I started it two weeks before I was laid off. The first half costs �150 which I have paid, the second half, which is needed to complete the qualification costs �270 which I cannot afford and would be free if I was lucky enough to be in receipt of JSA. I would like to take other courses in order to help me get a job but cannot afford to.
I am perfectly willing and able to help myself back into gainful employment but have arrived at a brick wall that seems to stem just from the fact that I was unable to pay Class 1 National Insurance contributions as a self employed worker. How can you help?
Eighteen months later and I have been laid off because business is quiet and I find myself not entitled to contribution based job seekers allowance because my self employed contributions do not count ( a fact that I wasn't aware of ) and not entitled to income based job seekers allowance because my partner earns a little over the limit. Quite apart from the small help in income that belive me we could do with this has ment that I am also not entitled to other practical help that those in receipt of this benefit get.
The most frustrating is that I am attempting to get an office based job, which is something I used to do before I had my son 11 years ago, and I would like to get my skills up to date but I do not qualify for subsidised courses that I would get if I were in receipt of JSA. I am taking the European Computer Drivers License course which comes in two halves, in fact I started it two weeks before I was laid off. The first half costs �150 which I have paid, the second half, which is needed to complete the qualification costs �270 which I cannot afford and would be free if I was lucky enough to be in receipt of JSA. I would like to take other courses in order to help me get a job but cannot afford to.
I am perfectly willing and able to help myself back into gainful employment but have arrived at a brick wall that seems to stem just from the fact that I was unable to pay Class 1 National Insurance contributions as a self employed worker. How can you help?
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This is the situation my brother in law has found himself in after over 30 years of contiuous self employment as a joiner, now he has no income and he falls into the same trap you have. I don't know when it happened that class 4 was not meant to be for future benefit entitlement, but noone told him either until it came to needing support. When they have fallen behind with the mortgage and are under threat of repossession even then they will not get help, it stinks.
bednobs
Wed 25/02/09
nobody can help - you simply haven't paid enough contributions and therefore are not entitled to claim this benefit
It isn't simple! I have been employed continually ( except for 1 yr maternity leave in 1997) since I was 15 yrs old in 1985.
I have always contributed the full amount to National Insurance.
Why is there different classes of national insurance?
Why does being self employed effectively make me a 2nd class citizen?
Why is it that if you are willing and make every effort to help your self you get nothing but if you sit back and do nothing you get all the help you could want and more?
Self-employed folk pay less in NI Contributions as they pay a flat-rate Class 2 Contribution of �2.30 each week. They pay a Class 4 contribution (in effect a tax) at the rate of 8% of profits between �5,435 and �40,040.
If I earnt �20,000 this tax year, I would pay �2,792 in tax and �1,599 in NI Contributions, a total of �4,391.
If I were a self-employed person and made �20,000 in profits, I would pay �1,165 in tax and �119.60 in NI Contributions a total of approximately �2,330.
That means as a self-employed person, I would have saved more than �2,000 in tax and NI.
You may feel you are hard done by because you do not qualify for JSA but you must are wrong to say you are a second-class citizen
If I earnt �20,000 this tax year, I would pay �2,792 in tax and �1,599 in NI Contributions, a total of �4,391.
If I were a self-employed person and made �20,000 in profits, I would pay �1,165 in tax and �119.60 in NI Contributions a total of approximately �2,330.
That means as a self-employed person, I would have saved more than �2,000 in tax and NI.
You may feel you are hard done by because you do not qualify for JSA but you must are wrong to say you are a second-class citizen
TCL-MUMPING: I have been working 12+ hour days 6 days a week for nearly 2 years. I have grossed an average of �6,000 a year, had no sick pay, no holiday (pay or otherwise), no company pension, belive me taxi driving (day shift) is not a lucrative business. I had never heard of different classes of National insurance before I had to sign on. If given a choice I would have paid class 1 stamps, and more if I had too....I wasn't given a choice, I wasn't even made aware.
Doing the same job, same hours, same pay as an employed worker I would have benefited from all the above, JSA and most relevant of all free re-trainning.
I have never been a bludger, I have always strived to pay my way and now, through no fault of my own I am in the deepest rut I've ever been in with no way out
Doing the same job, same hours, same pay as an employed worker I would have benefited from all the above, JSA and most relevant of all free re-trainning.
I have never been a bludger, I have always strived to pay my way and now, through no fault of my own I am in the deepest rut I've ever been in with no way out
There are rules & regulations and cut off points for many things so there will always be those who just miss out. When JSA used to be Unemployment Benefit, self-employed folk didn't qualify but now at least those on low income can get the Income Based JSA.
As I showed in ma previous example, there are benefits in being self-employed
As I showed in ma previous example, there are benefits in being self-employed
My husband is in a similar position; self employed for all but one year so no help by way of JSA. The fact I work part time is taken into account. They system is unfair.
JSA should be a basic small amount available to everyone out of work - as the name suggests it should allow you some money to get yourself on your feet again. Job hunting has it's costs.
My husband signs on every 2 weeks. It costs him to get there and pay in the nearby car park. For this they pay his Class 1 NI. As he already has more than enough years towards his state pension and is unlikely to ever be able to claim a benefit Class 1 affords (because I work part time and we have a small separate income) I think it is a strange requirement.
Even tho you do not receive JSA you are able to claim free dental treatment and prescriptions by showing your 'signing on' documents. And that's all you get!
JSA should be a basic small amount available to everyone out of work - as the name suggests it should allow you some money to get yourself on your feet again. Job hunting has it's costs.
My husband signs on every 2 weeks. It costs him to get there and pay in the nearby car park. For this they pay his Class 1 NI. As he already has more than enough years towards his state pension and is unlikely to ever be able to claim a benefit Class 1 affords (because I work part time and we have a small separate income) I think it is a strange requirement.
Even tho you do not receive JSA you are able to claim free dental treatment and prescriptions by showing your 'signing on' documents. And that's all you get!
Well I didn't get any benefits from being self employed..far from it. As originally posted, I did the same job employed and self employed...same company car, same company, same hours, same earnings. I stuck with the job 'cos its flexible, which as a single mother for 8 years was essential also because I was good at it and i enjoyed it.
I'm not particularly worried about actually receiving any money, we'l get by, we have to. As I said, I need to re-train and I cant.
If, as a single mother I had sat on my arse, cried and said woe is me I would have been housed for life, recieved more benefit than I have earned by working and be able to take as many courses as my heart desired wheres the sence in that?
How do they expect me to find work if my skills are 11 years out of date, I'm competing against newly qualified school leavers and well qualified others?
I'm not particularly worried about actually receiving any money, we'l get by, we have to. As I said, I need to re-train and I cant.
If, as a single mother I had sat on my arse, cried and said woe is me I would have been housed for life, recieved more benefit than I have earned by working and be able to take as many courses as my heart desired wheres the sence in that?
How do they expect me to find work if my skills are 11 years out of date, I'm competing against newly qualified school leavers and well qualified others?
i would guess the system is there to make sure that everyone has a guaranteed minimum income. As your partner is earning and his/her income comes above that then in effect you between you do have that minimum level of income i suppose.
i'm sorry if you didn't think my answer was constructive - it was a true and honest answer to your question "how can you help" which is to say i can't - that's the way things are. it sounds like you might have been netter off saving the money you were were saving in national insurance for those 18 months - it would probably be more valuable than getting JSA (although i realise you can't change this now and there is nothing worse than someone saying "you should have done this or that" just think it could be helpful to someone else who has gone self employed and hasn't found out about the changes it makes).
Your wage astounds me! who would work 72 hour weeks for �115?? Does that include tips?
i'm sorry if you didn't think my answer was constructive - it was a true and honest answer to your question "how can you help" which is to say i can't - that's the way things are. it sounds like you might have been netter off saving the money you were were saving in national insurance for those 18 months - it would probably be more valuable than getting JSA (although i realise you can't change this now and there is nothing worse than someone saying "you should have done this or that" just think it could be helpful to someone else who has gone self employed and hasn't found out about the changes it makes).
Your wage astounds me! who would work 72 hour weeks for �115?? Does that include tips?
tips, no one tips in devon. Taxis were de regulated here about 7 years ago, that is to say, there is no limit to the number of licenses issued. Therefore the number of taxis have risen over that period from 75 to close on 175.
I started off ok because as a single parent my income was always topped up by one benefit or another. It was flexible, in that I could swap between day and night shift, cut down hours for school holidays, work extra if my son was away from home.
Now, as a couple, and with the increase in taxi numbers, drop in pub trade since the smoking ban and now the recession things have gotten harder and harder until it was costing more to do with maintenance, fuel, insurance etc, etc than I was earning....so why indeed
I started off ok because as a single parent my income was always topped up by one benefit or another. It was flexible, in that I could swap between day and night shift, cut down hours for school holidays, work extra if my son was away from home.
Now, as a couple, and with the increase in taxi numbers, drop in pub trade since the smoking ban and now the recession things have gotten harder and harder until it was costing more to do with maintenance, fuel, insurance etc, etc than I was earning....so why indeed
�I started off ok because as a single parent my income was always topped up by one benefit or another�
�Why is it that if you are willing and make every effort to help yourself you get nothing but if you sit back and do nothing you get all the help you could want and more?�
Can you not see the contradictions in those two statements?
If you had not been a single parent would you have got the same help? Would a couple have said that THEY were being treated like second-class citizens?
�Why is it that if you are willing and make every effort to help yourself you get nothing but if you sit back and do nothing you get all the help you could want and more?�
Can you not see the contradictions in those two statements?
If you had not been a single parent would you have got the same help? Would a couple have said that THEY were being treated like second-class citizens?
I worked, I had a low income i was helped. Couples with low incomes get help too, as do we.
My point is that I and many other previously self employed people are now being disciminated against. There are no benefits that I can see to being self employed, any tax breaks are eaten up by costs and quite frankly I'd rather have paid a higher rate for my NI stamp if I'd have had the choice.
As I said earlier its not the actual amount of benefit I am not allowed to receive, our tax credits will eventually adjust and help us out, its the other benefits, the subsidised courses that will help me get back to work I need, which will be better for everyone. I dont see the sense of it all and I certainly don't see a way out
My point is that I and many other previously self employed people are now being disciminated against. There are no benefits that I can see to being self employed, any tax breaks are eaten up by costs and quite frankly I'd rather have paid a higher rate for my NI stamp if I'd have had the choice.
As I said earlier its not the actual amount of benefit I am not allowed to receive, our tax credits will eventually adjust and help us out, its the other benefits, the subsidised courses that will help me get back to work I need, which will be better for everyone. I dont see the sense of it all and I certainly don't see a way out
If you have a look I wrote "I am not saying that it would be the case for this particular ECDL course.. " however many courses require JSA (Income Based) as these examples confirm
http://www.nichoices.co.uk/details/word-word-p rocessing-software/95200.aspx
http://www.targettraining.org.uk/index.php?opt ion=com_content&task=view&id=21
http://www.argyllcollege.com/web/policy_Docs/F ee_Waiver_Policy_2008_9.pdf
http://www.northhighland.ac.uk/downloads/broch ures/wickspr09.pdf
http://www.yeovil.ac.uk/it_qualification
http://www.nichoices.co.uk/details/word-word-p rocessing-software/95200.aspx
http://www.targettraining.org.uk/index.php?opt ion=com_content&task=view&id=21
http://www.argyllcollege.com/web/policy_Docs/F ee_Waiver_Policy_2008_9.pdf
http://www.northhighland.ac.uk/downloads/broch ures/wickspr09.pdf
http://www.yeovil.ac.uk/it_qualification
Just to build further on TCL's point on rates of contributions, an employee's employer ALSO has to pay NI contributions at a rat of about 11% - to add to the figures TCL indicated.
Again, as per bednobs and TCL, I am not making a case that it is fair, but merely pointing out that the amount of money going into the NI pot on your behalf is even more than TCL indicates. So the State decides that it will not fund JSA, one assumes. A bit like an insurance scheme.
Good luck in your efforts to resolve things - you clearly have tenacity.
Again, as per bednobs and TCL, I am not making a case that it is fair, but merely pointing out that the amount of money going into the NI pot on your behalf is even more than TCL indicates. So the State decides that it will not fund JSA, one assumes. A bit like an insurance scheme.
Good luck in your efforts to resolve things - you clearly have tenacity.
TCL-MUMPING: sorry just felt for the benefit of persons using this thread that I should point out that your calculations above are not a fair comparison to a PAYE employee as you have failed to take into consideration the income tax a self employed person has to pay also. You have only stated the NI contributions in your comparison so there is definately not a saving of 2k from being self employed and I think its really silly for someone to suggest that. Every person in the UK has the same personal allowance for income tax purposes, national insurance is the only rate which differs in self employment.
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