Quizzes & Puzzles7 mins ago
Wall Ownership
7 Answers
A garden wall between two separate properties was erected and maintained many years ago by one owner at his personal cost on his neighbours land to which he gave verbal permission for it to be built. Not a problem for tens of years.
Unfortunately person who built the wall has died and his property is being transferred to a beneficiary. There are no legal recorded evidence of this personal arrangement .
Who owns the wall ? and what actions need to be taken to avoid any future potential problems concerning maintenance or any form of liability?
Unfortunately person who built the wall has died and his property is being transferred to a beneficiary. There are no legal recorded evidence of this personal arrangement .
Who owns the wall ? and what actions need to be taken to avoid any future potential problems concerning maintenance or any form of liability?
Answers
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Here's an analogy which might help:
Let's suppose that Person A got person B to agree that he could regularly park his car on Person B's land. When Person A died the car would form part of his estate but would not 'belong' to his house. (i.e. depending upon the wording of A's will, it would be possible for the house to be left to one beneficiary and the car to a different beneficiary).
As I see it, all that's happened in the situation you describe is that A has 'parked' his wall, with permission, on B's land. The wall now belongs to A's estate but is NOT part of his house. (i.e. if his house is sold the wall won't be included in the sale because it never formed part of his property).
Before proceeding further (and involving solicitors) an informal chat between the executor(s) of A's estate and Person B might be the best course of action. Person B might be prepared to sell (or even gift) the relevant portion of land to A's estate or, alternatively, he might be prepared to accept the wall as a gift from the estate. If no agreement can be reached it might even be necessary for the executor(s) of A's estate to arrange for the demolition of the wall.
Remember though that, unless there's some form of legal agreement in place (or a general duty of care to prevent a hazardous situation arising), the owner of a wall or fence is never under any obligation to keep it in good repair. (If it starts to fall down he can just let it do so and say to his neighbour "If you want a wall or fence you can put your own up").
Let's suppose that Person A got person B to agree that he could regularly park his car on Person B's land. When Person A died the car would form part of his estate but would not 'belong' to his house. (i.e. depending upon the wording of A's will, it would be possible for the house to be left to one beneficiary and the car to a different beneficiary).
As I see it, all that's happened in the situation you describe is that A has 'parked' his wall, with permission, on B's land. The wall now belongs to A's estate but is NOT part of his house. (i.e. if his house is sold the wall won't be included in the sale because it never formed part of his property).
Before proceeding further (and involving solicitors) an informal chat between the executor(s) of A's estate and Person B might be the best course of action. Person B might be prepared to sell (or even gift) the relevant portion of land to A's estate or, alternatively, he might be prepared to accept the wall as a gift from the estate. If no agreement can be reached it might even be necessary for the executor(s) of A's estate to arrange for the demolition of the wall.
Remember though that, unless there's some form of legal agreement in place (or a general duty of care to prevent a hazardous situation arising), the owner of a wall or fence is never under any obligation to keep it in good repair. (If it starts to fall down he can just let it do so and say to his neighbour "If you want a wall or fence you can put your own up").
Thank you Buenchico for your response.
As you gather I am asking this question for a friend who now tells me that the Executors have transferred persons A property to the beneficiary.
Person B has approached the new owner and have asked for the wall to be transferred to them (B) . The new owner of the property refuses to acknowledge that the wall built by the previous owner belongs to them. So now a situation arises the new owner does not accept ownership of the wall and say they cannot gift something they do not own.
Person B is quite willing to accept ownership of the wall and the associated liability and maintenance to keep in a good state to the benefit of both parties.
However, with this impasse they are not sure how to proceed so to avoid the potential of any future dispute surrounding this wall should either party wish to sell their property.
I can only "assume" the new owners do not want the possibility of any potential cost of future maintenance or the inconvenience of organising any work on the wall.
What action can Person B take to accept ownership of this wall?
The relationship between both parties is amicable but is frustrating , but I do understand why Person B wants clarity to avoid any problems arising in the future
All advice is welcome so I can take back to them to consider their next steps.
As you gather I am asking this question for a friend who now tells me that the Executors have transferred persons A property to the beneficiary.
Person B has approached the new owner and have asked for the wall to be transferred to them (B) . The new owner of the property refuses to acknowledge that the wall built by the previous owner belongs to them. So now a situation arises the new owner does not accept ownership of the wall and say they cannot gift something they do not own.
Person B is quite willing to accept ownership of the wall and the associated liability and maintenance to keep in a good state to the benefit of both parties.
However, with this impasse they are not sure how to proceed so to avoid the potential of any future dispute surrounding this wall should either party wish to sell their property.
I can only "assume" the new owners do not want the possibility of any potential cost of future maintenance or the inconvenience of organising any work on the wall.
What action can Person B take to accept ownership of this wall?
The relationship between both parties is amicable but is frustrating , but I do understand why Person B wants clarity to avoid any problems arising in the future
All advice is welcome so I can take back to them to consider their next steps.
Thanks for your reply.
As I see it, the new owner of the house is correct in saying that the wall has nothing to do with him (as the wall never formed part of his property).
So the person whose land the wall is situated upon needs to approach the executor(s) of his deceased neighbour's estate to get them to formally assign ownership of the wall to him. It would probably be best to involve a solicitor and might involve the new owner of the wall paying a nominal sum (of perhaps just £1) to 'buy' the wall from the estate.
The new owner of the wall might also wish to get the Land Registry records amended to include the wall as part of his property. (Having gone through the complications of selling a bit of land to my next door neighbour, I'd strongly advise involving a solicitor at that stage).
As I see it, the new owner of the house is correct in saying that the wall has nothing to do with him (as the wall never formed part of his property).
So the person whose land the wall is situated upon needs to approach the executor(s) of his deceased neighbour's estate to get them to formally assign ownership of the wall to him. It would probably be best to involve a solicitor and might involve the new owner of the wall paying a nominal sum (of perhaps just £1) to 'buy' the wall from the estate.
The new owner of the wall might also wish to get the Land Registry records amended to include the wall as part of his property. (Having gone through the complications of selling a bit of land to my next door neighbour, I'd strongly advise involving a solicitor at that stage).
Oh dear
the parties probably intended this so did not write on paper
Chris' analogies are by and large unhelpful - the question should be - does permission and the right to PARK the car pass with the land or does it die with the giver ?
and the answer is - it depends and was discussed in Tulk v Moxhay 1848 - and there is a little plaque in Leicester Sq which commerates this
X ( Tulk or Moxhay or someone else) agreed not to develop and their lordships said the agreement travelled with the land and did not die with the owner
https:/
well you dont have a written document so I am not sure if it does you know ( right travels with the land)- my fave Barmaid specialises in this.
It is not so much a question of who owns it - as who maintains it and can they have access to do it ?
( which you will notice is NOT a restrictive covenant)
Lawyers rub their hands at his sort of thing ( mega fees) and land law students scratch their heads over this
I actually would wait and see -
there is already a sign of a dispute when they say - they cant cede something which is not theirs - I think they can - "the land is A's - the wall is B's and maintenance is due solely to B and B have access to do it on reasonable notice to A."
well that is my shot anyway and yes I hve been involved in a wall dispute ......
the parties probably intended this so did not write on paper
Chris' analogies are by and large unhelpful - the question should be - does permission and the right to PARK the car pass with the land or does it die with the giver ?
and the answer is - it depends and was discussed in Tulk v Moxhay 1848 - and there is a little plaque in Leicester Sq which commerates this
X ( Tulk or Moxhay or someone else) agreed not to develop and their lordships said the agreement travelled with the land and did not die with the owner
https:/
well you dont have a written document so I am not sure if it does you know ( right travels with the land)- my fave Barmaid specialises in this.
It is not so much a question of who owns it - as who maintains it and can they have access to do it ?
( which you will notice is NOT a restrictive covenant)
Lawyers rub their hands at his sort of thing ( mega fees) and land law students scratch their heads over this
I actually would wait and see -
there is already a sign of a dispute when they say - they cant cede something which is not theirs - I think they can - "the land is A's - the wall is B's and maintenance is due solely to B and B have access to do it on reasonable notice to A."
well that is my shot anyway and yes I hve been involved in a wall dispute ......
Peter , Thanks for looking at this..
To my knowledge neither party is in dispute about access. It is all amicable between new owner A and B both agreeing to allow access for maintenance of the wall
Just a quick correction to your response it is Party A that has acquired the property as a beneficiary with Party B owning the land that wall was built on .Maintenance or access are not an issue by either party
The question I really need answering is who owns the wall and what needs doing to avoid any future pitfalls as a result of clarity of the ownership of the wall . Or do they just leave it and let any issues come out during conveyance as both party A and B are distinctly mature of age
To my knowledge neither party is in dispute about access. It is all amicable between new owner A and B both agreeing to allow access for maintenance of the wall
Just a quick correction to your response it is Party A that has acquired the property as a beneficiary with Party B owning the land that wall was built on .Maintenance or access are not an issue by either party
The question I really need answering is who owns the wall and what needs doing to avoid any future pitfalls as a result of clarity of the ownership of the wall . Or do they just leave it and let any issues come out during conveyance as both party A and B are distinctly mature of age
my guess is - legal owner A ( of the land)
equitable owner B ( of the wall)
https:/
I would leave well alone
most people dont claim walls as they then have to maintain them ( or pull them down at own cost)
equitable owner B ( of the wall)
https:/
I would leave well alone
most people dont claim walls as they then have to maintain them ( or pull them down at own cost)
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