English probate law

[oldmancap]

Can anyone help me with my question? a "Will" was made out by my old aunt [in London] and her estate was given to a sole benefisiary, who then took the "Will" for safe keeping and storage to a solicitor on Scotland. The solicitor in Scotland signed the bottom of the "Will" along with the benefisiary [under the witness signatures] and the reason given was this was to identify the "Will". Is this a common practice? Would this be legal?

[factor-fiction]

Is there any significance to the word "will" being in inverted commas in your question?
Was the will valid- correctly made out and signed and witness correctly at the time?
Or are you saying it wasn't witnessed until after the death, when the scottish solicitor witnessed it. If so, that sounds odd to me.

[oldmancap]

Thank you for your intrest factor 30. I write the word "Will" in that fashion to show it is a "Will" and not just will in it's ordinary sence. I know, a bit over the top. Yes the WILL was witnessed correctly at the time it was made. It was then taken to the Scottish solicitor[ for storage] and suposedly signed by the solicitor and the beneficiary, as the beneficiary said to me in a statement "Just for identification purposes". I find it odd why if they were going to sign it for that reason then why not on the back? It's all smells very fishy . The WILL has passed probate and I am contesting it.

[factor-fiction]

Happy to try and help.

But I'm not clear why you have an issue with the Will being signed in this way- I can't see why it could possibly be considered "very fishy".

Has it been signed in this way to confirm that it is the definitive Will (not some earlier version). I suggest it's better to sign the front rather than the back, as the validation signature might he overlooked on the back. Or are you saying there is a law about this which requires the signature to be on the back not the front?

Are you willing to share the reasons why you are contesting the will? - this would help put your question in context and I might understand your concern better.

[dzug]

The extra signing seems to be unnecessary but of no significance whatsoever.

Maybe it was done for security/id reasons - to ensure that the right will/beneficiary were 'joined' in future.

[Barmaid]

the only reason I can think of why the beneficiary and solicitor signed the Will is after death in order to get the Grant of Probate. The executor (if the beneficiary was also the exec), would have to swear an oath that the paper now produced and "marked by me" (ie signed) is the original will. The solicitor will often witness this if he is a Commissioner for Oaths.

If death has not yet occured, I see no reason why this should be done. However, it has absolutely no legal effect.

[oldmancap]

thank you all for your help barmaid, duzg and factor30. My old aunt Jenny made a WILL in 1994 after her husband died. The WILL left 15 gifts of �1000 to friends. � She left the resedue to her brother David and sister Evelyn. . Jenny had no children of her own.�� One of the witnesses died so a new Will was made in1999.��� The 1999 Will has never been seen or it's contents. My old aunt Jenny had a stroke during year 2000 and it affected her phyically and mentally.Her sister Evelyn and daughter Rose would visit old aunt Jenny� to help out.� � During one of Evelyn's visits in 2002 old aunt Jenny said she would make a new Will since her brother had died. She produced a shop bought Will and said she wanted her niece Rose to be her executor.� She proceeded to dictate to Rose her wishes and Rose wrote out the Will in her own handwriting.� Old antie left� gifts of �1000 to her nephews and neices and the rest of her estate to Rose.� While this was being written, Jenny's� sister was in the house but did not realise what was going on.�� Now they had to find witnesses.� It was sugessted that the should use Rose's step son ( the editor) who lived in London, he was contacted and was agreeable. While waiting for the editor the gardener turned up and he was asked to be the second witness. He duly signed.� The gardener has been sent a questionair by us to the circumstances of his signing and who was there.� He says he remembers Rose, Evelyn and old antie Jenny being there.� He has never mentioned the editor at all as being there.� He also can't remember seeing old auntie signing.Can we challenge this Will on radical differance to the old Will or undue influence or that the gardener and the editor did not sign together? I would like to challenge it on Presumed undeifluance but I don't think thats available in English courts.� Any thoughts on this case.

[factor-fiction]

The reference to a passing gardener signing the will sounds vaguely familiar. Have you posted this before on AB? Or is it an old story from about case law? In the gardener case I vaguely remember reading, the will wasn't valid because the gardener signed it after the others had signed and therefore hadn't witnessed the signatures.
Anyway, this is one best left to your solicitor- without knowing all the facts we can only suggest things on AB.

[oldmancap]

Thanks factor 30 I have asked on Ab before about the Will and about two witnesses not signing together. That's where you might have read it. This is a real ongoing case and no exercise or case law. Obviously I changed all the names and have given the meat of the problem. I was interested to see what some of the law people would think, wether I was wasting my money or not. Thank you for your answers.

[Barmaid]

This sounds terribly complicated and I can see at least two legal issues here (compliance with s9 Wills Act 1937 and also the question of Rose being the writer of a dictated will under which she took a benefit (lack of knowledge and approval under the Wintle v Nye principle)). I suggest you seek urgent legal advice from either a STEP (Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners) or ACTAP (Association of Contentious Trusts and Probate Specialists) with a view to instructing counsel for their advice asap.

[oldmancap]

Thank you barmaid for your advice. I will look up Wintle v Nye I do have some very expencive lawyers in London dealing with the case. a.c.t.a.p. ones. You once asked me ,some time ago to relate the story so that (as you said)there were many geeks on AB that might help. I was not sure if I should do that because of the pending case, but I like to try and do something for myself instead of waiting on
everone else to help me. I cant help getting involved LOL
Thank you again