ChatterBank0 min ago
Should I sign a deed of easement?
Hi! We purchased a new build house in Nov 06. We have been approached by a solicitor for the water board asking us to sign a deed of easement so they can have access to the main drain in th centre of the garden. However this means they will need access to the WHOLE garden right up to our patio doors! If they need to dig it up they want 3 meters either side for pilling up the muck and thats pretty much our whole garden! I realise that if there is a problem with the drain I dont want to be footing the bill for it but the deed says that the water board can appear at any time without warning, remove our fence, dig up the garden, patio, move the shed etc, do what they need to do and then not have to put it back the way it was? Sorry this is a bit long winded but not sure ehat to do, any help?? Thanks
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Something very fishy about this.
If this is private sewer (and normally it is up to the point where the main drain in the road is) then it is your responsibility anyway. Very often private sewers link adjacent properties together (they are all 'private') and the sewer is jointly and severely the responsibility of all the residents. They each have an easement over each others properties to be able to resolve problems.
In the above situation, the water board isn't the slightest bit interested - it is the land owners' problem if there is a fault (though the law is about to change non-retrospectively on this soon).
If the Water Board have come sheepishly now and want a right of access, someone has fouled up somewhere and an easement ought to have been sorted out when the development was done.
I smell a revenue opportunity here - you are under no obligation to sign the easement and certainly not without some readies being handed over and the water Board paying for your solicitors costs.
Suggest you find out what this is - I think it must be part of a public sewer.
If this is private sewer (and normally it is up to the point where the main drain in the road is) then it is your responsibility anyway. Very often private sewers link adjacent properties together (they are all 'private') and the sewer is jointly and severely the responsibility of all the residents. They each have an easement over each others properties to be able to resolve problems.
In the above situation, the water board isn't the slightest bit interested - it is the land owners' problem if there is a fault (though the law is about to change non-retrospectively on this soon).
If the Water Board have come sheepishly now and want a right of access, someone has fouled up somewhere and an easement ought to have been sorted out when the development was done.
I smell a revenue opportunity here - you are under no obligation to sign the easement and certainly not without some readies being handed over and the water Board paying for your solicitors costs.
Suggest you find out what this is - I think it must be part of a public sewer.
from reading through the solicitor speak (why do they talk in riddles?) it seems that it is the main public sewer that comes down the road and passes through ours and our neighbours gardens. Just reading it further it more or less says that once the deed is signed we have to ask permission to do anything that may cause damage to the sewer, so my plans for a conservatory are out of the window... even though the sewer is about 4 meters away from the patio doors they want that land to pile the excess soil. Just all seems to be in the water boards favor however it does say they will pay the solicitors costs.
Ah, as I thought.
I repeat, someone has fouled up (no pun intended) and they now want to 'regularise' the position. In short the Water Board does not have your permission for that sewer to be running through the land that you own.
You are also right that one is not permitted to dig foundations within a set distance from a public sewer.
So, what are their options? Well you could be telling them that you want the thing moved! How costly is that going to be for them? Alternatively you are prepared to grant the easement on payment of a sum. No point being too greedy - what about �10k say. Point out that you cannot now have your dream extension on the back.
It is most unlikely that the sewer would ever need to be excavated.
I repeat, someone has fouled up (no pun intended) and they now want to 'regularise' the position. In short the Water Board does not have your permission for that sewer to be running through the land that you own.
You are also right that one is not permitted to dig foundations within a set distance from a public sewer.
So, what are their options? Well you could be telling them that you want the thing moved! How costly is that going to be for them? Alternatively you are prepared to grant the easement on payment of a sum. No point being too greedy - what about �10k say. Point out that you cannot now have your dream extension on the back.
It is most unlikely that the sewer would ever need to be excavated.
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This is getting interesting! could i really ask for that much? not that the money is substitute for the garden, or conservatory but if we had been told about this in the 1st place when we bought the house we would have looked elsewhere so we could have what we want, now we're in the situation that our garden is not much use other than as grass as the wather board will have right of way on it if we sign, we actually chose the house as it had the best sized garden for our money we had to spend and the sewer was never mentioned to us by the plc builder or on the searches performed by our solicitor. Saying that we did come back from holiday in the 1st year of living here to find the fence down, garden dug up and a jcb parked in the middle of it as the builders had ballsed up building it! should have realised then lol! sorry to keep asking but my nice house with nice garden is now just a house with a garden that northumbian water will have rights over. not what we bought in the 1st place!
Precisely. This sounds like it is getting more expensive for Northumbrian Water by the minute. You've been messed around and the property that you thought you bought is not the property you now have.
Let's be clear about this - don't don't HAVE to sign any deed of easement. There is no 'set price' for such things - inconvenience, and hence the price put on such an inconvenience is a value only you can put on it.
I invented the �10k figure - you can ask what you like. Equally they may refuse, or more likely start to negotiate.
What I am not sure about is what alternatives they have. Clearly they have a problem and one that they would like to go away by just getting you to sign away an easement for nothing. Suggest though the price you ask needs to be considered in the context of the cost that they would incur in resolving what is THEIR problem a different way.
Ask them what alternatives THEY propose - that should get them squirming. Alternatives may include them re-routing the pipe to go around your property. Imagine how much that it going to cost them. There may a route by which they can obtain a compulsory order to acquire an easement - I'm not sure - but that in itself would require some independent assessment of compensation for you.
Let's be clear about this - don't don't HAVE to sign any deed of easement. There is no 'set price' for such things - inconvenience, and hence the price put on such an inconvenience is a value only you can put on it.
I invented the �10k figure - you can ask what you like. Equally they may refuse, or more likely start to negotiate.
What I am not sure about is what alternatives they have. Clearly they have a problem and one that they would like to go away by just getting you to sign away an easement for nothing. Suggest though the price you ask needs to be considered in the context of the cost that they would incur in resolving what is THEIR problem a different way.
Ask them what alternatives THEY propose - that should get them squirming. Alternatives may include them re-routing the pipe to go around your property. Imagine how much that it going to cost them. There may a route by which they can obtain a compulsory order to acquire an easement - I'm not sure - but that in itself would require some independent assessment of compensation for you.
Could you ask for the wording on the easement to have something along the lines of they can only do work that has a. been approved by you b. only done with xx notice ie they can't just turn up and dig your garden and c. they must make good any damage.??
I know someone who deals with this sort of thing everyday so will ask them later...
I know someone who deals with this sort of thing everyday so will ask them later...
what you could do is look at houses for sale in your area and compare the price of a house with a conservatory and a similar one without, say the difference is 15k then this is your starting point then add on an extra couple of thousand for stress inconvenience and making good the mess that will be left. This is the process the water companies solicitors will do and it'll just be a case of negotiating as they will probably offer you a lot less than you think is fair
Update: going to seek the advice of a solicitor I think as this is a bit over my head! All I wanted was to put a conservatory on my house in my garden! The day I picked up the keys the Site Manager even said to me "its a lovely spot for a conservatory on the back of here mind"! Well, will see what the solicitor says, my neighbour is kicking up a fuss to as its half her garden also, think we will stick together to get a result. Safety in numbers and all that!
Even without the easment they can come onto your land in an emergancy and with reasonable notice for other maintanence (three days). Something about section 24 and 102 I think!!? Also they could (if you were arsey to them) get arsey with you by being 'heavy handed' when doing any work. Admitedly they have to make good the damage they do but they could take an age and well you know the rest...
I would be looking at why your solicitor didn't pick it up. Wasn't it on the plans at all? Either the developer forgot to add it to the plans or the solicitor didn't pick it up. Look for recourse there as well.
If you don't give them permission and make it difficult just think how you and your neighbours will react when you have a ton of sewage spilling over the garden and possibly over the door stop into the house!
Any amount of money you ask for for loss of enjoyment or use of the garden has to be comparative. �10k is excessive but you could ask for it and maybe get 1 or 2k.
I would be looking at why your solicitor didn't pick it up. Wasn't it on the plans at all? Either the developer forgot to add it to the plans or the solicitor didn't pick it up. Look for recourse there as well.
If you don't give them permission and make it difficult just think how you and your neighbours will react when you have a ton of sewage spilling over the garden and possibly over the door stop into the house!
Any amount of money you ask for for loss of enjoyment or use of the garden has to be comparative. �10k is excessive but you could ask for it and maybe get 1 or 2k.
i dont agree with 10k being excessive, the value a conservatory will put on the house wont be a million miles away from that amount, then you've got the loss of enjoyment of your conservatory which you could never put a price on.
With a little digging you could find out whether the solicitors did their job correctly and if not then claim your solicitors fees back, if it was an oversight by the developer get in touch with them explain what has happened and you may be suprised by their response
With a little digging you could find out whether the solicitors did their job correctly and if not then claim your solicitors fees back, if it was an oversight by the developer get in touch with them explain what has happened and you may be suprised by their response
Over exaggeration by Cassa.
How many public sewers around your way have you seen breached in the last month?, year?, decade? ever? The answer in my case, and I expect yours, is a big round zero.
We are talking about a tough plastic pipe here about a metre or more underground with (presumably) no manhole into the garden (because manholes exist at junctions). Not some Victorian brick-constructed sewer that might collapse suddently
Public sewers generally back up and overflow when overwhelmed by run-off water following a deluge. They then overflow from the manholes. Since 99% of public sewers are in the public carriageway- that is what you see on the news - raised manholes spewing sewage.
How many public sewers around your way have you seen breached in the last month?, year?, decade? ever? The answer in my case, and I expect yours, is a big round zero.
We are talking about a tough plastic pipe here about a metre or more underground with (presumably) no manhole into the garden (because manholes exist at junctions). Not some Victorian brick-constructed sewer that might collapse suddently
Public sewers generally back up and overflow when overwhelmed by run-off water following a deluge. They then overflow from the manholes. Since 99% of public sewers are in the public carriageway- that is what you see on the news - raised manholes spewing sewage.
Regardless of the likelyhood of a breakage or overflow an overflow could well be the outcome. He does have a manhole cover... perhaps just the same as in the roads that you say overflow. so it isn't an exageration. Because it doesn't happen much doesn't mean it won't, because if you work on that assumption then don't worry about the easment as a right of way as they will never need to come onto your property to fix it?
I have seen pump stations that have packed up and the overflow has spread far and wide. Mmmm nice in your garden.
In my oppinion (not a legal one) the developer OR solicitor should be 'paying' for your loss of not being able to build in your garden as they were the ones who are at fault of either not putting the easement in place or not picking it up. Therefore it would seem unfare to make the water company to foot the bill. But hay, just go after the easiest one as we all probably would.
However on the matter of the easement for the maintanence of the sewer pipe my earlier statement still stands. They can do it anyway.
I have seen pump stations that have packed up and the overflow has spread far and wide. Mmmm nice in your garden.
In my oppinion (not a legal one) the developer OR solicitor should be 'paying' for your loss of not being able to build in your garden as they were the ones who are at fault of either not putting the easement in place or not picking it up. Therefore it would seem unfare to make the water company to foot the bill. But hay, just go after the easiest one as we all probably would.
However on the matter of the easement for the maintanence of the sewer pipe my earlier statement still stands. They can do it anyway.
I have just checked the land registry for my house and I have come accross this paragraph:
(12.04.2000) The land is subject to the following rights reserved by a
Transfer thereof and other land dated 31 March 2000 made between (1)
George Rea Campbell and Mary Anne Campbell and (2) Hatch Warren 1992
Limited:-
"The Property is sold subject to:-
...All rights of way drainage water courses and other rights in the nature
of easements or quasi-covenants now or usually enjoyed by adjoining owners
or occupiers over all or any part of the Property"
NOTE: 'The Property' referred to includes the land in this title.
Am I s**t on?
(12.04.2000) The land is subject to the following rights reserved by a
Transfer thereof and other land dated 31 March 2000 made between (1)
George Rea Campbell and Mary Anne Campbell and (2) Hatch Warren 1992
Limited:-
"The Property is sold subject to:-
...All rights of way drainage water courses and other rights in the nature
of easements or quasi-covenants now or usually enjoyed by adjoining owners
or occupiers over all or any part of the Property"
NOTE: 'The Property' referred to includes the land in this title.
Am I s**t on?
Surely there not your sewers or pipes otherwise you would be responsible for the upkeep and the water company wouldn't be bothered?
It could be read that the property (sewer and pipe) owners or the developers have a right of easement. However I'm not the knowledgable one in this family and have to wait until I can quiz the brains.
I wonder what a quasi-covanent is?
It could be read that the property (sewer and pipe) owners or the developers have a right of easement. However I'm not the knowledgable one in this family and have to wait until I can quiz the brains.
I wonder what a quasi-covanent is?
I have had word back from the solicitor I used when purchasing the house origionally and they have said that there was no mention of a public or private sewer on our land, the searches did not show it and the origional plans for the estate did not include it, the pointed me in the direction of the developer (Grainger Homes) and more or less said they wanted nothing to do with it!
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