Shopping & Style6 mins ago
Unlawfull wage deduction?
I have today receieved a payslip for last week, and have lost about 20 hours or so. From what I gather, one of the directors of the firm has started to monitor Tracker reports from company vehicles, and has decided to claw back money from employees that have submitted incorret timesheets.
I have had no notification this was going to happen, and have certainly not agreed to it, either verbally or in writing. The thing that has really annoyed me is there is no advice note, memo, or compliment slip in wage slip to tell me what the deduction is for, or what timescale it covers. Shoddy management and downright ignorant is my opinion.
Whilst I can appreciate that the firm is struggling, and may need to look after finances, I am wondering
a) Whether they can legally do this without notice
b) How far back could they go?
c) If illegal, under what act?
I have had no notification this was going to happen, and have certainly not agreed to it, either verbally or in writing. The thing that has really annoyed me is there is no advice note, memo, or compliment slip in wage slip to tell me what the deduction is for, or what timescale it covers. Shoddy management and downright ignorant is my opinion.
Whilst I can appreciate that the firm is struggling, and may need to look after finances, I am wondering
a) Whether they can legally do this without notice
b) How far back could they go?
c) If illegal, under what act?
Answers
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do you have to sign the timesheet to say that it's accurate t the best of your knowledge? If so you are probably lucky to get away with a wage deduction (although in this case it dosen't seem to be a deduction, more just paying you for the hours you've actually done) if i submitted a false tmesheet at work i could be facing gross misconduct charges as it is effectively stealing.
On the face of it, it seems like the employer is within their rights, but ore info is required, such as, do you get paid a fixed amount n matter how much work you do? or are your wages based on the amount of tim you put in?
Plus, are there any mitigating factors for an incorrect timesheet, for example is the tracker info open to interpretation? lastly if there is no infrmation, how do you know they have not simply miscalculated your wages rather than making deductions?
On the face of it, it seems like the employer is within their rights, but ore info is required, such as, do you get paid a fixed amount n matter how much work you do? or are your wages based on the amount of tim you put in?
Plus, are there any mitigating factors for an incorrect timesheet, for example is the tracker info open to interpretation? lastly if there is no infrmation, how do you know they have not simply miscalculated your wages rather than making deductions?
Sara3, thankyou for your straight reply. Now Ronnie Biggs is out perhaps I could take his place as Public Enemy No1?
I have not tried to cheat them out of any monies, quite the opposite. I tend to do more hours than I book, and work through dinnertimes. I would rather be busy and employed than no job, and at the moment every job is important, so I just do my bit to help.
I work for a small building company, less than 15 employees, and involved in large projects and reactive maintenance jobs. By the nature of the business, some days we have nothing to do at say 4pm, and it has been the custom to go hoame and leave phone on in case of call-out, and book 5pm. Other days I may have to pop out to suppliers at say 7pm, when I don't book it, so a certain amount of give and take on both sides. This has been the way for years, and no problems have occured until two gaffers started having a go at each other, and using the employees as pawns in their corporate chess game.
For the past 8 weeks at least, Mr Financial gaffer has been doing wages off our timesheets and Tracker, and deducting accordingly. He takes the view if we are 3 minutes late, we loose a quarter of an hour. If we work 5 minutes over to get something finished off, we don't get a quarter.
So he has been paymaster for 2 months, some weeks correct, some weeks down, but always in their favour, of course.
This week I am 20 hours down, and a little annoyed to say the least. Not the money side of it, the fact that he must have gone back at least 8 weeks, and then spent hours looking through previous tracker reports to work it all out, and then deducts wages without any prior consultation or notice. This is what I am questioning, the legality of his action. If I owe them money, fine, I will pay. But to have it deducted without any notification of why or for what period is to me downright poor practice, and ignorant. It begs the question if he has nothing to do next week, will he go b
I have not tried to cheat them out of any monies, quite the opposite. I tend to do more hours than I book, and work through dinnertimes. I would rather be busy and employed than no job, and at the moment every job is important, so I just do my bit to help.
I work for a small building company, less than 15 employees, and involved in large projects and reactive maintenance jobs. By the nature of the business, some days we have nothing to do at say 4pm, and it has been the custom to go hoame and leave phone on in case of call-out, and book 5pm. Other days I may have to pop out to suppliers at say 7pm, when I don't book it, so a certain amount of give and take on both sides. This has been the way for years, and no problems have occured until two gaffers started having a go at each other, and using the employees as pawns in their corporate chess game.
For the past 8 weeks at least, Mr Financial gaffer has been doing wages off our timesheets and Tracker, and deducting accordingly. He takes the view if we are 3 minutes late, we loose a quarter of an hour. If we work 5 minutes over to get something finished off, we don't get a quarter.
So he has been paymaster for 2 months, some weeks correct, some weeks down, but always in their favour, of course.
This week I am 20 hours down, and a little annoyed to say the least. Not the money side of it, the fact that he must have gone back at least 8 weeks, and then spent hours looking through previous tracker reports to work it all out, and then deducts wages without any prior consultation or notice. This is what I am questioning, the legality of his action. If I owe them money, fine, I will pay. But to have it deducted without any notification of why or for what period is to me downright poor practice, and ignorant. It begs the question if he has nothing to do next week, will he go b
I had a look at the ACAS website too because this is not an area I've much direct experience with.
In the first instance, I think it boils down to the nature of your contract - whether you are hourly paid or weekly paid. Hourly paid means you are paid for the number of hours that you work at a rate per hour. Weekly pay means you are salaried and get so much per week, and that the hours of work are 37 per week (whatever). They are not the same thing, if you get my drift.
If you are then late for work on weekly pay, you may be subject to discplinary action perhaps (especially if you keep doing it) but you wouldn't get money docked off - especially not in quarter hour chunks for 3 minutes lateness.
Do you clock-in using a timeclock?
The second thing I want to ask, is how long have you been working there under the old arrangement and is there anything documented in a company handbook to say this is what the 'rules' are? If not, it could be argued that you have an implied term of your contract that you get paid under the 'old' regime and it is breaking your existing T&Cs for it to be changed in this manner.
Related to unlawful deductions themselves, employers can only make deductions under a few set of circumstances - one of which is to correct a previous overpayment of wages. If you have previously been paid x based on a timesheet submission and now that is subject to rescrutiny, that sounds a bit rich, because a decision had been made to pay you x on that timesheet and now deductions are retrospectively being applied.
Finally can I say that, just because you are in an industry that collects timesheets from staff, it doesn't make you hourly paid. The timesheets (by the sound of it) are for the purposes of recharging clients.
You obviusly have a prat of a manager here. If a deduction is being made, you are right that at the very least it should be itemised as to why. I think this is a breach of the rules, but it is i
In the first instance, I think it boils down to the nature of your contract - whether you are hourly paid or weekly paid. Hourly paid means you are paid for the number of hours that you work at a rate per hour. Weekly pay means you are salaried and get so much per week, and that the hours of work are 37 per week (whatever). They are not the same thing, if you get my drift.
If you are then late for work on weekly pay, you may be subject to discplinary action perhaps (especially if you keep doing it) but you wouldn't get money docked off - especially not in quarter hour chunks for 3 minutes lateness.
Do you clock-in using a timeclock?
The second thing I want to ask, is how long have you been working there under the old arrangement and is there anything documented in a company handbook to say this is what the 'rules' are? If not, it could be argued that you have an implied term of your contract that you get paid under the 'old' regime and it is breaking your existing T&Cs for it to be changed in this manner.
Related to unlawful deductions themselves, employers can only make deductions under a few set of circumstances - one of which is to correct a previous overpayment of wages. If you have previously been paid x based on a timesheet submission and now that is subject to rescrutiny, that sounds a bit rich, because a decision had been made to pay you x on that timesheet and now deductions are retrospectively being applied.
Finally can I say that, just because you are in an industry that collects timesheets from staff, it doesn't make you hourly paid. The timesheets (by the sound of it) are for the purposes of recharging clients.
You obviusly have a prat of a manager here. If a deduction is being made, you are right that at the very least it should be itemised as to why. I think this is a breach of the rules, but it is i
You obviously have a prat of a manager here. If a deduction is being made, you are right that at the very least it should be itemised as to why. I think this is a breach of the rules, but it is impossible to be sure. Your recourse is through an Employment Tribunal. I suggest you have a look at Hawkwalk's good link to the ACAS site. Having armed yourself with info, approach the company and make noises around the term 'Unauthorised Deduction of Wages' and 'testing what they have done at an Employment Tribunal' and see what happens. Very, very many managers, especially in small businesses, do not have a clue when it comes to employment law.
I would plonk myself down in a chair in front of his desk and ask for an explanation of every deduction.
If he persists in being petty, then I would inform him I could be equally petty in return. Previous give and take could be thrown out of the window
Inform him you are prepared to no longer do anything unpaid. Tools would go down at finish time - or earlier to ensure plenty of time for cleaning hands / removing overalls etc.
No popping out at 7 pm.
See if he is prepared to enter into a reasonable discussion on the topic
If he persists in being petty, then I would inform him I could be equally petty in return. Previous give and take could be thrown out of the window
Inform him you are prepared to no longer do anything unpaid. Tools would go down at finish time - or earlier to ensure plenty of time for cleaning hands / removing overalls etc.
No popping out at 7 pm.
See if he is prepared to enter into a reasonable discussion on the topic
There is a saying in employment situations "No contractual right, without contractual authority".
In your case, the method used to pay you , as buildersmate says, should be specified in your terms and conditions of employment. If you are to be "quartered", then it should be explicit in the Ts& Cs, as should any deductions for any other reason, such as variations in hours worked.
see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027228 and http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/EmploymentContractsAndConditions/DG_175704
I would be tempted to tell him you wish to raise a grievance under the company's procedure (Ts and Cs again) and take your payslip as Panicbutton has suggested, plus a copy of the Ts & Cs and ask him to explain every deduction and where it occurs in them. If there are no Ts and Cs, then you should have some in one form or anotherand that is something you can complain about.
In your case, the method used to pay you , as buildersmate says, should be specified in your terms and conditions of employment. If you are to be "quartered", then it should be explicit in the Ts& Cs, as should any deductions for any other reason, such as variations in hours worked.
see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027228 and http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/EmploymentContractsAndConditions/DG_175704
I would be tempted to tell him you wish to raise a grievance under the company's procedure (Ts and Cs again) and take your payslip as Panicbutton has suggested, plus a copy of the Ts & Cs and ask him to explain every deduction and where it occurs in them. If there are no Ts and Cs, then you should have some in one form or anotherand that is something you can complain about.
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