please help!

[beck07]

I had loads of imported clothes in my flat which are copies of designer clothes and are not stolen property but my flat was searched by police and they seized it all and nicked me for handling stolen goods as there was so much. do the police have to prove the clothes are stolen to charge me with the offence??
i am trying to get invoices for them but as i got them from a mate i dont know if he can get me any invoices???
any help will be much appreciated!
thanks

[Ethel]

If you got them from a mate how do you know they aren't stolen?

If your mate imported them he should have all the dockets from customs and excise as well as the invoices.

[beck07]

im being told they are imported so i only really only have his word. while the police were searching my flat they done a check over the radio and it came back they wasnt reported stolen, but im worried that they can still charge me even if tho dont have proof their stolen??

[Ethel]

The problem you have is the true owner is hardly going to report the crime - counterfeiting is a very serious offence in itself.

You cannot be charged with handling stolen goods if they are not stolen, but you can be charged with all sorts of 'passing off' and counterfeit offences.

[beck07]

we was told that fake clothes arnt a police matter??

[Whickerman]

told wrong.

[Rollo]

This is what happens when you do a favour for a dodgy mate. You are the one who gets the fallout.

[Buenchico]

Nobody in their right mind is going to provide you with an invoice for fake goods. If, for example, you take a holiday to somewhere like China (where fake goods abound) and you buy a single fake designer garment (purely for your own use), you're committing a criminal offence if you try to bring it through customs. While importing a single fake garment wouldn't lead to anything worse than seizure, anyone importing large amounts of fake goods (for commercial gain) risks lengthy prison sentences. So they're hardly likely to issue invoices stating that they've imported the goods!

As Ethel states, the Crown Prosecution Service won't consider bring any charges under the Theft Act unless they can show that theft has taken place. However, you need to ask yourself how the police came to know that the goods were in your flat. If it's because you've been seen selling them in pubs, on markets or at car boot sales, then you're in much the same position as the people who imported them. Selling fake goods is a serious offence which frequently results in prison sentences. If you've not actually sold any, or if you've only been seen selling a few items, the CPS (in conjunction with Trading Standards and the police) might decide that confiscation represents a sufficient penalty. However, if Trading Standards have (for example) video evidence that much of your income has been derived from the sale of counterfeit goods, a prosecution seems inevitable and a prison sentence seems likely.

Chris

[fredpuli47]

" As there were so much" ? Loads? It all depends: In law you can be charged and convicted of handling stolen goods even though there is no direct evidence that the goods have been stolen. Circumstantial evidence may be proof enough . The value, nature, quantity, place where found, of the goods , and the business and circumstances of the accused and how he or she came by the goods may be enough to prove they were stolen. This is what older lawyers call a "Fuschillo handling" after the defendant whose case set a precedent. (Mr Fuschillo had a vast quantity of sugar in his shed in wartime, when sugar was rationed and very valuable on the black market. Nobody could prove where it came from but the court said the jury could infer that such a quantity found in such a place had been stolen and that Mr Fuschillo knew that when he got it )

Remember though that any prosecutor has to prove not only that the goods were stolen but that you knowing or believing them to be stolen goods you dishonestly received them or dishonestly agreed to , basically, keep them for someone else for a while. Your knowledge or belief is critical.

[Buenchico]

Fredpuli47 correctly states that circumstantial evidence can be used to prove that something is stolen. e.g. if someone buys a �200 mobile phone for �10 from a guy in a pub, that might well suggest
(a) that the phone is stolen ; and
(b) that the purchaser would have reasonable grounds to suspect that the phone was stolen.
Such circumstantial evidence could be used in a prosecution, even though there was no direct proof that the phone was stolen property.

However, there's nothing in your post which suggests that the police have any relevant circumstantial evidence. For further information about the law relating to handling stolen goods, see here:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section8/chapter_a .html#12

However, I still believe that your real concerns should relate to trading in counterfeit goods, rather than to handling stolen goods.

Chris

[spaced]

"fake clothes are not a police matter" - never heard such rubbish.

Of course it is, its ILLEGAL. I hope you used to confined spaces

[beck07]

my boyfriend was arrested at our flat for a different matter and when the police searched the flat they found them, thats how they have the clothes.. We were told that they were real so can we still get in trouble if we didnt know they were fake?? we have never had anything like this on our records so wont they go easier on us?? my record is as good as clean and my boyfriend has a few driving offences and a few minor shoplifting so its not like our records consist of major criminal activity!
We had around 30 tracksuits and about 10 jackets so i dont know if they will class that as minor or major amount??
we sold a few of these on the internet and they know this as they got it all up so how does that stand????
thanks for all your answers so far!!

[beck07]

We have also only been selling these clothes since 3rd november so its not like its been our income for years, will this make any difference???

[Ethel]

Hope you have informed the taxman of your profits from the sales, by the way - and if you sold them as genuine you will be in trouble with Trading Standards.

And I hope you are not on benefits - because they will take an interest in your sideline as well if you are.

If you didn't believe they were fake - did you believe they were stolen? Were you selling them for proper value or super cheap? How did you advertise them? As the genuine thing?

Selling fakes is a criminal offence and carries a maximum sentence of 10 years imprisonment.

[beck07]

i advertised them on an auction site and i wasnt selling them for real cheap and i didnt say they were real but i have been told that fake clothes are not a police matter, this was said on tape during an interview with them!!
How come all the local markets flog the same gear and its ok??

[jno]

if you've got printouts of the auction website page that may well help back up your story. It's a slightly fuzzy area of law. There's nothing to stop you selling clothes that look a bit like someone else's clothes, otherwise everyone at Primark would be behind bars. You're not allowed to say they're genuine clothes, though, either in your own words or by sewing apparently genuine labels onto them, because that would be swindling customers into believing they were buying a real Gazucci. You're not allowed to actually steal clothes (or anything else), of course, but it doesn't sound as if you have. And you're not allowed to handle stolen goods, but they'd need to prove to a court that you knew they were stolen. So you might just be ok; but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

[beck07]

well we didnt steal them and we know theyre not stolen so all they may have is that they are copies. how would the printouts help us??

[Buenchico]

(2-part post):

The only reason that some market traders get away with selling fake goods is because Trading Standards departments haven't got enough staff to monitor every market and car boot sale. When Trading Standards become aware of illegal trading, they take appropriate action:

http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/pressrelease/pressrelea se.asp?id=2438

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_ar ticle_id=40481&in_page_id=34

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/Two-jailed-over- multimillion-pound.1851520.jp

Considering your eBay sales:
If you, for example, advertised a 'Ralph Lauren' shirt, the advert implies that the item is genuine, even though you might not have stated so. Selling a fake, under such circumstances, constitutes fraud. If you'd stated that the item was a fake, you'd be admitting attempting to sell counterfeit goods. Either way, it's a serious crime.

Whoever told you that selling fake goods 'isn't a police matter' might have meant that the police don't normally actively seek out people who trade in counterfeit items. However, you might just as well say that fiddling your tax isn't a police matter because they don't normally investigate tax evasion. HMRC normally carry out such investigations but, just because the police aren't involved, it doesn't stop evasion being a criminal offence. Similarly, Trading Standards (rather than the police) normally investigate the sale of counterfeit goods (although they'll often bring the police in to search premises) but it's still a crime.

[Buenchico]

As Ethel indicates, the various agencies work together. If you've been doing a lot of trading on eBay (where you've sold on items that you've bought for resale, rather than just selling a few unwanted personal items), you're obliged to pay tax on all of your profits. If you've not declared your profits, you might also find that HMRC will pursue you for unpaid tax (or, if the amounts are quite large, bring a prosecution against you).

You're going to have to decide whether to tell the police that you believed the items were genuine or to admit that you knew they were fake. If you thought they were genuine and bought them, for a very low price, from a 'dodgy' source, you risk being prosecuted for handling stolen goods (as per Fredpuli47's post and my subsequent response, regarding circumstantial evidence, above). If you admit that you knew they were fakes, you risk prosecution for trading in counterfeit goods.

As has been stated, the maximum penalty for trading in fake goods is 10 years imprisonment. However, I very much doubt that you'd receive a custodial sentence for the relatively small quantities of goods in your possession or the very limited trading you've engaged in. If you were prosecuted, you'd probably end up with a fine or a community punishment. (Use the links above to compare the scale of your offences with those which resulted in imprisonment).

Chris

[beck07]

thanks for all your replys..
Buenchico: I checked out those websites you posted and one of them got 12 months for selling conterfiet goods and he was making �170,000 a year! i have been selling them for 1 month and only made about �500 so surely cant be looking at a prison sentence??
we are both really worried as we have a baby and just wanted to make some quick money for xmas!!
we have to answer bail in january, so if we do get charged what will make them go easier on us??

[Rollo]

You need a solicitor.