police national computer querey

[claire-B]

does having your name on the police computer but no record of a conviction mean that you have a criminal record? to cut a long story short i spoke to the police and my name is on there to show that the police have spoken to me but no record of what for...i had a fixed penalty for shoplifting and paid it i did not go to court...any body advise me please? Im after this info as i wanted to go on hols where i need a visa and if the above means i have a criminal record thn i cant go

[MarkRae]

If you paid a fixed penalty for shoplifting, then you have a criminal record. In this country, we have the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act (Google it). However, certain countries (notably the USA) do not understand the concept of rehabilitation, and you are required to disclose any and all arrests, never mind actual convictions, when applying for a visa.

However, for such a (relatively) minor offence as this, they have absolutely no way (currently) of knowing about it.

More detailed information from you regarding how old you are now, how old you were when you committed the offence, and where you intend to travel will elicit more detailed responses.

[claire-B]

hi thanks for your reply..i was neither arrested or convicted or anything like that..i was given the fine/penalty or whatever you want to call it on the spot where i shoplifted! it was last april. so basically i do have a criminal record so i need to tick the box which states that have been convicted of a crime despite the fact that i havent actually got a conviction?

[MarkRae]

<sigh>

Let's try that again - eyes down, look in...

1) How old are you now?

2) How old were you when you committed the offence?

3) Which country / countries do you want to visit?

[dh001]

Hold on a mo Claire (dont tick the box yet) will get in a mo

[dh001]

Ooops sorry Mark we posted at the same time.

[claire-B]

yes i did read your answer so please if your going to be sarcastic then think again...it happened last april as in april 2009 when i was 22...im stil that agea now and it was at a local shopping centre

[claire-B]

hope to visis canada/usa

[MarkRae]

> if [your] you're going to be sarcastic

I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I'm actually trying to help you! That's why I've been asking for concrete information...

> hope to [visis] visit canada/usa

What you have done, according to the Americans, is committed an act of moral turpitude. This means, regrettably, that if you abide by their rules you will NEVER EVER be able to enter the US legally.

However, currently we do not share details of such crimes with the Americans. So they have no way of knowing about it. Which means that you could (almost) certainly travel to the US on the Visa Waiver Program (Google it) and just say "no" to all the questions.

Again, I can't actually advise you to do that. But you'd (almost) certainly get away with it...

[claire-B]

sorry just very worried hence the writing mistakes..so basically when my passport gets scanned if it came up that my name is on the national computer which apparently it will but with no info regarding what for then id pobs be questioned and then its up to them

[claire-B]

sorry when you say we don't share the details of such crimes do you mean that despite my name coming up on the computer when they scan the passport then they wouldn't see info so they wouldn't ask questions?

[factor-fiction]

"i was neither arrested or convicted or anything like that..i was given the fine/penalty or whatever you want to call it on the spot where i shoplifted! "
I may be wrong but that does sound like a criminal record to me.
But as has been said, i can't see how the US immigration control people would pick up this fact

[jno]

I'm not so sure. The point of a lot of these instant fines is that they don't clog up the justice system, so they don't involve criminal records - it's more like handing over money in return for receiving a warning. I could be wrong here, so I'm open to correction. Anyway, just don't mention it on the American visa waiver forms or online ESTA approval forms. They're not going to know.

[ABerrant]

Criminal record - Yes ........ Criminal conviction - No.

Shoplifting is a recordable offence. Anyone who commits a recordable offence is generally arrested and brought into police custody where their identity is confirmed. From there they can either be issued with a FPN or in consultation with the CPS, charged. Anyone who commits a recordable offence will have their details recorded on the Police National Computer (PNC) and this is also true when not having been arrested but issued with an on-the-spot FPN. The PNC can be thought of as a database of police interaction with the populous in regard of criminal matters. It is not meant to be a cache exclusively for criminal conviction data and the records are not available to foreign immigration agencies.

[jno]

But claire says this didn't happen? No custody and no record of what she was fined for?

This

http://www.asiantrade...wsDetails.aspx?id=389

says (near the end) that there's no criminal record for an instant fine for shoplifting - but of course it's not official and may be incorrect.

[jno]

this suggests no record for shoplifting goods worth less than £200

http://www.dailymail....xed-penalty-fine.html

(from the Mail, that emblem of accuracy)

[ABerrant]

jno - It is a common mistake to interchange "criminal record" with "criminal conviction" as perpetuated in the two reports you cite.

This circular issued by the Ministry of Justice during January 2010...

http://www.justice.go...ular-01-2010-pnds.pdf

...includes this text:

"Penalty Notices for Disorder (PNDs) for recordable offences, such as retail theft and cannabis possession, are registered on the Police National Computer. PNDs are not disclosed routinely, but may be as part of an enhanced criminal records check if deemed relevant to the application by the Chief Officer of Police. Detailed guidance to police forces on disclosure can be found in Section 15 of the existing PND operational guidance (latest version March 2005)."

Hence the recordable nature of a recordable offence (the hint is in the name) remains unchanged from the 2005 guidance...

http://police.homeoff...e2835.pdf?view=Binary

[ABerrant]

I should clarify that this "Is it recorded?" debate has no real bearing on the situation of the OP.

Visa Waiver Entry to the US may be denied on "arrests" and "convictions". Visa application may be denied for the same reason.

Visa Exempt Entry to Canada may be denied to those who admit to "commission of a criminal act" however, as previously stated, foreign immigration agencies have no access to PNC records relating to the OP's criminal act.

A person visiting either country is not guaranteed entry even if they possess a valid visa.

[jno]

thanks for the clarification, ABerrant

[sumo19]

MarkRae is wrong.

You do not have a criminal record. Beng a recipient of a PND and paying it involves neither an official finding nor an acceptance of guilt.

A Police National Computer record is not the same as a criminal record. Everyone who is is arrested will have PNC record to show they have been arrested, but if they are not found guilty of anything then they have no criminal record.

You need a visa. On the visa form for USA is says,' Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offence or crime in any country .....etc.'

You have never been arrested and you have never been convicted of anything. You can tick no to that box.

The question on the Canadian form is pretty much the same, it justs asks that question for the whole family.

You are not banned from the USA at all. You can legally go.

When you go to the visa interview, you will need a police certificate. PNDs do not show on a police certificate; it is only convictions, cautions, warnings and reprimands that are shown. You have none of these, you are completely fine.

You may be able to use the visa waiver program to go to the USA if you want? It would sure save time and effort travelling to London for a visa interview. Are you sure you definately need a visa to do what you want to do there?

[sumo19]

ABerrant with all due respect you are alo wrong. Claire-B has not been found guilty of doing anythig wrong. All it is is that the police have had reason to believe she has committed one, there is a big difference between this and being found guilty.

Also, commenting on someone else's post; PNDs are recorded on the PNC even if they were given on the spot. You don't have to be arrested to get a PNC record. But remember that this isn't a criminal record.