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Caution on Land Certificate.
10 Answers
I had to obtain a copy of the Land Certificate relating to my house to find a caution had been put on it by the local council social services department.
My father lived in my house for 10 years as I am widowed and he then had to go into a nursing home with dementia. He had full NHS funding so no fees were payable. He passed away 5 years ago.
I have asked the council why they put this caution on my property and they have stated if I had passed away before my father and he subsequently only qualified for social funding in the future the council could have recovered their money when the house was sold.
My house was willed to my children. If I had passed away surely this could have not been the case.
Jane
My father lived in my house for 10 years as I am widowed and he then had to go into a nursing home with dementia. He had full NHS funding so no fees were payable. He passed away 5 years ago.
I have asked the council why they put this caution on my property and they have stated if I had passed away before my father and he subsequently only qualified for social funding in the future the council could have recovered their money when the house was sold.
My house was willed to my children. If I had passed away surely this could have not been the case.
Jane
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I assume that you own your house (possibly subject to a mortgage) and that your father had no financial interest in the house.
If the above is the case – then it is almost certainly the case that your local council obtained the caution based on the belief that he had some legal interest in your house.
If this is the case, I would demand that the local council rectify this.
NB: Bear in mind that local councils are staffed by complete incompetents.
If the above is the case – then it is almost certainly the case that your local council obtained the caution based on the belief that he had some legal interest in your house.
If this is the case, I would demand that the local council rectify this.
NB: Bear in mind that local councils are staffed by complete incompetents.
Hi there, hmmm lots of separate points here. Did he in law have a legal interest ie he was merely living with you and not contributing financially, did he help pay the mortgage etc. It would be worth finding out where they got this info from.
Also If he was fully funded within NHS continuing care provision ie he had a primary healthcare need, there should be no charges anyway. You could contact your local health and social care dept at the council and ask them to provide you with the exact dates when funding was granted under continuing care (NHS funding) I cant see how they put a charge on the property without your knowledge, you could ask them for proof that you were informed about it. I think it might be worth taking up the complaints procedure if you do not get a satisfactory response. If he had been under socail care funding, all of his income and benefits and savings up to a set limit would have been taken into account and used to cover the cost of the care. Only then is a persons property taken into consideration and it sounds like it wasn't his property.
I would certainly ask for documents and dates etc and ? seek legal remedy if its still not adding up. Hope that helps
Also If he was fully funded within NHS continuing care provision ie he had a primary healthcare need, there should be no charges anyway. You could contact your local health and social care dept at the council and ask them to provide you with the exact dates when funding was granted under continuing care (NHS funding) I cant see how they put a charge on the property without your knowledge, you could ask them for proof that you were informed about it. I think it might be worth taking up the complaints procedure if you do not get a satisfactory response. If he had been under socail care funding, all of his income and benefits and savings up to a set limit would have been taken into account and used to cover the cost of the care. Only then is a persons property taken into consideration and it sounds like it wasn't his property.
I would certainly ask for documents and dates etc and ? seek legal remedy if its still not adding up. Hope that helps
When Dad was in hospital I did see the Social Worker and she did query the ownership of the house and I stated Dad had not paid anything towards it. She asked about the mortgage and I confirmed it had been paid 3 years before Dad arrived. She did not ask to see any evidence.
She then said that the houses were expensive in that road most including mine are 5 bedroom detached and did state that I could downsize as there would be only 1 person living in it and the surplus proceeds used for my fathers nursing home fees but I just stated I was not legally obliged to do this and I was not going to downsize.
I then sugested as my fathers needs were a Primary Health Care need he should have NHS funding.
After some argument this was agreed.
About 20 homes came to look at Dad over the next 6 weeks and none of them would take him.
One home looked at him and said they would but because of his extensive care needs the cost would be £1,400 per week.
The Social Worker did come up to me and said this would have to be authorised by a committee who were not meeting for another 4 days and she said if I agreed to pay Dad could go to the home straight away. She said Dad was degerating in hospital and may improve if he went to the home and also warned me the room could be lost while they were waiting for approval. I just refused knowing the NHS would have to do something and I did not see why I should pay.
Dad was only expected to live for a year in the home. He lived for nearly 5 years. If I had agreed to pay his fees I would have lost over half of the value of my house.
Jane
She then said that the houses were expensive in that road most including mine are 5 bedroom detached and did state that I could downsize as there would be only 1 person living in it and the surplus proceeds used for my fathers nursing home fees but I just stated I was not legally obliged to do this and I was not going to downsize.
I then sugested as my fathers needs were a Primary Health Care need he should have NHS funding.
After some argument this was agreed.
About 20 homes came to look at Dad over the next 6 weeks and none of them would take him.
One home looked at him and said they would but because of his extensive care needs the cost would be £1,400 per week.
The Social Worker did come up to me and said this would have to be authorised by a committee who were not meeting for another 4 days and she said if I agreed to pay Dad could go to the home straight away. She said Dad was degerating in hospital and may improve if he went to the home and also warned me the room could be lost while they were waiting for approval. I just refused knowing the NHS would have to do something and I did not see why I should pay.
Dad was only expected to live for a year in the home. He lived for nearly 5 years. If I had agreed to pay his fees I would have lost over half of the value of my house.
Jane
What people have said in this thread has been correct.
A caution on a property would have meant the council would have been informed if you were selling the property so it could then try to recover the money it was owed from the sale proceeds.
If it had been a jointly owned property and your father was on social funding the council could not have taken any of the proceeds of the sale of the property if you sold it after your father passed away but it could have taken if you sold it while he was in the home.
It appears the Social Worker had instructions to try to get the family to pay regardless of the legal situation.
I think what happened was the council were first trying to get you to pay and when they realised that would not work they were then going to try social funding.
If your father had later been found to only qualifying for social funding at some point in the future they may have tried to find out if your father had any financial interest in the house so if you sold it prior to your father passing away they may have taken part of the sale proceeds.
I do however think this investigation should have been done when your father went into the nursing home in anticipation of your father only having social funding in the future and the caution put on your property while this investigation was going on and then removed when the investigation was concluded. The longer matters are left staff leave papers are thrown away etc and it could be more difficult to get at the truth.
Other problems could have happened as well What would have happened if Jane wanted to downsize while her father was in the nursing home and Jane lost a buyer for her house and lost a property she was wanting to move to. I am not sure if the council would have been liable for any financial loss.
Jane wants to get the caution removed urgently. The council clearly has no financial interest in the property now and she does not want to have problems if she or her children want to sell it after Jane passes away. children.
Martin
A caution on a property would have meant the council would have been informed if you were selling the property so it could then try to recover the money it was owed from the sale proceeds.
If it had been a jointly owned property and your father was on social funding the council could not have taken any of the proceeds of the sale of the property if you sold it after your father passed away but it could have taken if you sold it while he was in the home.
It appears the Social Worker had instructions to try to get the family to pay regardless of the legal situation.
I think what happened was the council were first trying to get you to pay and when they realised that would not work they were then going to try social funding.
If your father had later been found to only qualifying for social funding at some point in the future they may have tried to find out if your father had any financial interest in the house so if you sold it prior to your father passing away they may have taken part of the sale proceeds.
I do however think this investigation should have been done when your father went into the nursing home in anticipation of your father only having social funding in the future and the caution put on your property while this investigation was going on and then removed when the investigation was concluded. The longer matters are left staff leave papers are thrown away etc and it could be more difficult to get at the truth.
Other problems could have happened as well What would have happened if Jane wanted to downsize while her father was in the nursing home and Jane lost a buyer for her house and lost a property she was wanting to move to. I am not sure if the council would have been liable for any financial loss.
Jane wants to get the caution removed urgently. The council clearly has no financial interest in the property now and she does not want to have problems if she or her children want to sell it after Jane passes away. children.
Martin
Hi Jane
At the end of the day you have got to get this caution removed even if it involves contacting a solicitor.
I could see it taking some time as it has obviously been there for 5 years plus and the council may have to be contacted and as they are large orgnisations it may take some time for the council to agree to the caution being removed as it will have to investigate the situation and bring old records back etc.
The time to start getting the caution removed is now and not when you want to sell the house for example.
Amy
At the end of the day you have got to get this caution removed even if it involves contacting a solicitor.
I could see it taking some time as it has obviously been there for 5 years plus and the council may have to be contacted and as they are large orgnisations it may take some time for the council to agree to the caution being removed as it will have to investigate the situation and bring old records back etc.
The time to start getting the caution removed is now and not when you want to sell the house for example.
Amy
I'm amazed the Council put the caution on without you being aware of it. Are they still refusing to remove it (they have no possible justification for it remaining)? If that is the case, make a formal written to complaint to the Council. If they don't then act to remove the caution go to the Local Govt. Ombudsman on the grounds of maladministration.
I wouldn’t hold out too much hope with regards any council complaints procedures.
The chief executive officer of my local council lied to me (in writing); the council refused to investigate my complaint of such, and the Local Government Ombudsman found that my council had done nothing wrong (having itself failed to investigate my complaint).
The chief executive officer of my local council lied to me (in writing); the council refused to investigate my complaint of such, and the Local Government Ombudsman found that my council had done nothing wrong (having itself failed to investigate my complaint).
Hi Everyone
I received a standard letter yesterday stating they are investigating the matter and they will revert by the 24th February 2012.
I am pleased I have discovered this now because if I was trying to sell the house and I had to wait this time I may have lost the buyer.
Obviously I will be making a complaint but I think at this stage it is more important to get the caution removed.
Jane
I received a standard letter yesterday stating they are investigating the matter and they will revert by the 24th February 2012.
I am pleased I have discovered this now because if I was trying to sell the house and I had to wait this time I may have lost the buyer.
Obviously I will be making a complaint but I think at this stage it is more important to get the caution removed.
Jane
Hi Woolfgang / Jane
I have found the following link re cautions on property.
http://www1.landregis...documents/pg3.html#m4
I have read through it and it would appear there is no obligation for the Land Rgistry or Cautioner to notify you of the caution.
It almost appears anybody can put a caution on a property if they have reasonable cause. What is reasonable cause?.
It may be worth drawing this to the attenion of your MP.
It appears you are now in the hands of the council with regard to getting it withdrawn.
It appears that they do still have the records as they gave an answer as to why the caution was put on the property and they should be able to rectify the situation reasonably quickly.
What does concern me however is I am assuming you are of an age where you could be living in the property for another 20 years.
If you had not obtained a copy of your land certificate for all that time the present council staff would probably be no longer there and they might not be able to trace the records and the removal of the caution could take a lot longer.
Martin
I have found the following link re cautions on property.
http://www1.landregis...documents/pg3.html#m4
I have read through it and it would appear there is no obligation for the Land Rgistry or Cautioner to notify you of the caution.
It almost appears anybody can put a caution on a property if they have reasonable cause. What is reasonable cause?.
It may be worth drawing this to the attenion of your MP.
It appears you are now in the hands of the council with regard to getting it withdrawn.
It appears that they do still have the records as they gave an answer as to why the caution was put on the property and they should be able to rectify the situation reasonably quickly.
What does concern me however is I am assuming you are of an age where you could be living in the property for another 20 years.
If you had not obtained a copy of your land certificate for all that time the present council staff would probably be no longer there and they might not be able to trace the records and the removal of the caution could take a lot longer.
Martin
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