Why are Seven Whtehall departments still hiring more bureaucrats?

[youngmafbog]

with cuts across the public sector and taxpayers facing tax rises to cover what still is to higher public wage bill why is this happening?

Some are still making cuts, for instance the Ministry of defence cut its number of staff by 5% which should ease the pressure on the Military, on the other hand The Energy and Climate change increased by 4% from 2816 to 2929. Their excuse? "They have had a target to take on more officials as they ramp up energy policies that will increase our Utiltiy bills!.

Seems the Tories have been unable to get rid of the Liberal tree huggers and are looking for more. What a shower.

[Gromit]

MOD may have lost 5% of its workforce but how many are they re-hiring as private contractors to do the same work, probably at a higher rate?

[factor-fiction]

The staff numbers are an indicator but the issue is one of budgets.

[Prudie]

They are Gromit as a result of bad planning, lack of forethought and knee-jerk reactions.

[Gromit]

Here is the link to the story

http://www.telegraph....espite-austerity.html

[Gromit]

// In May, Mr Cameron pledged to shake up Whitehall to ensure government is “leaner, swifter, more effective”. //

Perhaps its a U-Turn.

[jake-the-peg]

Let's think about this

By beaureaucrats (which is just a deliberately provocative word crudely designed to get people to agree with you) I think we're talking about managers and administrators

I'm sure even you'd agree that without management things would soon go to hell in a handbasket.

So the question is what's the ideal ratio?

In the US there's talk about bills to force *targets* of 11:1

That's pretty aggressive - few could attain that Seattle for example is running at about 6:1

I couldn't find out the ratios in UK Government - I'm guessing you don't know either and aren't making this assessment based on any data

But do tell us if you know what they are.

An interesting figure - from the DM as it happens is that ther are nearly 40,000 administrators in the NHS

They try to scandalise us by pointing out that this is more than the number of midwives.

What they don't point out is that this is a ratio of about 35 staff per administrator.

I don't know about you but that doesn't sound outrageous to me

[jake-the-peg]

Sorry I was going to give you the DM reference

http://www.dailymail....pushers-midwives.html

[factor-fiction]

In my experience, jake, staff:management ratios are a very crude measure and targets can distort decision making and lead to increased expenditure as money is spent on expensive management consultants

[dave50]

Don't forget, every administrator and manager in the public sector is an overhead and when times are tough overheads should be cut, that's what successful businesses have to do, so it should be no different in the public sector.

[factor-fiction]

Hi dave50- so would that also apply to doctors, nurses, social workers, prison staff, teachers, tax collectors, DWP staff, street cleaners etc?

[jake-the-peg]

I agree factor - but you have to have a measure

Otherwise you're just in DM territory about whinging about an unspecified number of people crudely classified as penpushers

If someone can't put numbers to what the status is, what you want to achieve and justify that aspiration against other better performers then they're just a whinger trying to push a political line.

[factor-fiction]

I think there are much better measures though, jake. Surely the overall level of spending is the most important measure of costs, although there should be outcome measures too of course

[bazwillrun]

JTP ever worked for the civil service ?

Nah didnt think so

well i have for the British Council ...bunch of wasters for the most part union run lefties that know plenty about due process, but sweet fa about the job.

Overseas office budget targets being produced on time...nagh dont worry about them...but theyre 3 months overdue....so.

A work load so light it was embarrassing, phone rings twic in the day and thats a busy day for a lot of them

I could go on.

theyre very good at making up non-jobs and hiring to fill them though

[Zeuhl]

<<ever worked for the civil service ?

Nah didnt think so

well i have for the British Council>>

Hardly makes you an expert on Whitehall Departments does it? LOL

Regarding the simplistic notion that 'administrators' is a 'bad thing' and JTP's very relevant fact that the NHS has 35 staff per administrator, I have to say the only negative experience I had when using the NHS last year was that appointments weren't efficiently managed due to a lack of administrators, leaving some medical personnel sitting around with gaps in their schedules.

[Zeuhl]

To address the question;

whatever variety of government we get landed with, they are all predisposed to big-up their jobs, projects and profiles.

Taxes from the working and business population are a god-given right for politicos because their Budgets are things that appear as if by magic and have to be defended at all costs, committed as quickly as possible and grown whenever possible.

That is their career.

[sandyRoe]

Wasn't it Mrs Thatcher who brought in someone from the private sector to shake out the deadwood in the civil service? How did that go, could someone remind me?

[Zeuhl]

Not sure sandy.

<Dead Wood> is a matter of opinion.

Many ministers are employing 'Live Wood' that we arguably don't need and probably don't want to pay for.

[THECORBYLOON]

The British Council is a charity and although the Foreign Office is its "sponsor" it operates at arm's length from the Government and does nothing on behalf of the Crown so it can hardly be typical of the work done by Civil Servants.

[bazwillrun]

"Hardly makes you an expert on Whitehall Departments does it? LOL "

if only you knew

makes me more of an expert than people like you and JTP who just spout on most subjects you know know nothing about trying to pretend you do

[bazwillrun]

"so it can hardly be typical of the work done by Civil Servants."

apart form a cut and paste what if anything do you know of the British Council and what it does......